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flat/hilly stage controversy
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| RafaMarcos |
Posted on 26-04-2013 22:01
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Junior Rider
Posts: 26
Joined: 19-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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oh i really hope that my english will be enough to deliver my thoughts..
im just trying understand the nature of known pcm-12 bugs ('hey, we dont want to sprint", "catch breakaway and stop" )and find the way to solve them
first of all, how can we describe flat stage/classic in PCM-code:
-it has empty icon in race calendar
-pre-race favourites (onloading screen) are pure sprinters
-sprinter`s teams working in peloton during the race
-from 18 km to the finish-line there are sprint trains forming
-from 3 km to the finish-line there is classic sprint from trains or alone riders usin others wheels
i think every gamer could see that these things do not work sometimes and whole peloton naturally stops
lets find reasons of that:
1) there is tough, short but very steep hill not far from finish, sprinter`s teams cant or dont want to work on this hill and you (good mo/hill rider) can ride away without attacking for 1-2 min
2) there is very narrow road (milan - san remo) or cobble section not far from finish, sprinter`s teams phisycally cant work at front
3) the breakaway get caught very late (dont know maybe 12-5 km from finish), sprinter`s teams cant (they are already exhausted ) or dont want to work (game dont realise that its time to build trains) and everybody just stop
4) its early season race (tdu, aussie champ), and everybody is complete out of form and cant work because all riders are too weak
as from my experience (not very long to be honest).. those stages that are recognised as hilly by pcm.. they dont have these problems even with flat finish.. they are scripted with multiple late attacks from puncheurs and/or GC favourites, and we cant blame nobody for not working
so I have 2 questions:
1) is it possible to switch from "flat gameplay" to "hilly gameplay" somewhere in db.. for milan - sanremo for example
 <=>
2) will it help? (your thoughts)
Edited by RafaMarcos on 26-04-2013 22:06
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| cio93 |
Posted on 26-04-2013 22:20
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World Champion
Posts: 10616
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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None of your reasons actually explain a drop of speed to 30km/h or whatever ridiculous figure many of us experienced.
Question 1) No, one of the biggest letdowns of this edition is that there is no way to change the stage classification or the Mountain/Hill ratio.
2) is therefore irrelevant, at least for this edition.
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| RafaMarcos |
Posted on 26-04-2013 22:22
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Junior Rider
Posts: 26
Joined: 19-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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oh .. its disappointing |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 08-12-2025 13:06
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| RafaMarcos |
Posted on 26-04-2013 22:40
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Junior Rider
Posts: 26
Joined: 19-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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None of your reasons actually explain a drop of speed to 30km/h or whatever ridiculous figure many of us experienced.
so you dont think its "leadership crysis"?
when team, thats responsible for work, - cant work for a minute and everything "goes to hell"?
but it must be some reason.. i dont believe in coincidences))
Edited by RafaMarcos on 26-04-2013 22:41
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 26-04-2013 22:42
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21379
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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You made some nice observations there. You may be on to something, of course only a programmer would know for sure if he saw the codes, I guess.
But even pancake flat stages have the sprinting bug at times and there aren't any hills at all, so I don't think changing them to hilly would make it better, but for San Remo it might be better! |
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| RafaMarcos |
Posted on 27-04-2013 01:00
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Junior Rider
Posts: 26
Joined: 19-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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https://pcmdaily.c...ost_705950
here it is.. flat-but-non-flat-stage |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 27-04-2013 01:25
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 17833
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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first of all, how can we describe flat stage/classic in PCM-code:
-it has empty icon in race calendar
-pre-race favourites (onloading screen) are pure sprinters
-sprinter`s teams working in peloton during the race
-from 18 km to the finish-line there are sprint trains forming
-from 3 km to the finish-line there is classic sprint from trains or alone riders usin others wheels
There is a major difference in the game between Flat races/stages and Cobbled races/stages. For some reason in PCM12 they removed the Cobble indicator from the calendar at the bottom (used to be a symbol like for hills etc) making the situation seem worse
Thus empty icon is a mis-indication of what type of race/stage it is. (this should really be changed back, don't know why it was changed to begin with)
Again cobbles play a part with the pre-race favorites. Even if the cobbled section is tiny, the favorites will be different to as if the stage was normal.
Also expect teams with a Jersey to work in stage races, even if they have no sprinter. Also expect teams to chase their own riders, and not to chase their own riders.
In PCM12 something else changed, i assume as part of the gameplay updates. If there is a hill or cobbled section near the finish (inside the final 18k) the you cannot form a train before that climb/cobbles
____
On a Flat rated stage i have never seen a good MO/HL rider just get a gap on a hill near the finish (certainly not an MO rider), unless they have a good FL stat (Wiggins comes to mind)
Never seen a narrow (1 width) road stop the sprinters teams. If its inside the final 30k they are (99% of the time) always already near or on the front. If the narrow road is earlier, then, unless that road goes all the way until 10k to go, it won't have an impact. Again if the road is cobbled, then i wouldn't expect to see the "sprinters" teams working as it is not a stage for the sprinters, but it is for the cobble riders.
Its true that the AI won't form a train until the break is caught, which causes problem if they are caught inside the final 10k and the player has train set up. (simple way around this is to either not form a train early, or not to come straight forward and make the pace). Never seen them just stop at that point though, as someone always makes a train for their sprinter. (the massive slow down bug only seems to occur when the break is caught much earlier on in the stage)
In the early season you'll find the AI are in better form than you the player. A lack of form will not stop them making a train unless their rider is not a favorite or suited to the stage. But in the early season they have better form, and are more often favorites over the player, and are more likely to work...
And never take an NC as reference for any sort of gameplay analysis as small startlists and odd team sizes just fuck the game right up at the best of times
___
There is a bit of odd programming in how the game decides what is flat and what isn't. We all know MSR, the WC etc should be hilly, and hilly stages that should be flat
But if you ignore those stages the gameplay is surprisingly good (or at least much better than previous versions), and even more so on higher difficulty settings.
I think back over all the flat stages i've played on PCM12 (which is probably well over 200) i notice that the number of times a bug (slow down etc) appears is around 1in30, but bad AI is around 1in10 (and then i can usually explain it away to certain player induced circumstances
___
Not meant as an attack, but commenting on an interesting post with my views. I almost exclusively play flat stages as i love sprinting and cobbles, so this is a key area to me. (that and the mountain AI and gameplay is actually just broken)
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 27-04-2013 08:26
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21379
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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Never seen them just stop at that point though, as someone always makes a train for their sprinter. (the massive slow down bug only seems to occur when the break is caught much earlier on in the stage)
Well you're lucky  I've seen them slow down even when the break wasn't caught yet. Almost catching the break, then suddenly 30 km/h. I've also seen it in a stage without a break and stages where the break was caught really late... Unfortunately  |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 27-04-2013 09:20
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 17833
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Ian Butler wrote:
Never seen them just stop at that point though, as someone always makes a train for their sprinter. (the massive slow down bug only seems to occur when the break is caught much earlier on in the stage)
Well you're lucky I've seen them slow down even when the break wasn't caught yet. Almost catching the break, then suddenly 30 km/h. I've also seen it in a stage without a break and stages where the break was caught really late... Unfortunately
In fairness i've never seen it because i am pretty much always working for the sprint myself. So even if the peloton tried to stop i would drag them along anyway
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 27-04-2013 11:14
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21379
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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In that case, it's good. You'd see it if you only brought a sprinter but not a sprinter's team. You would latch on to another sprint's wheel and suddenly the peloton would be riding 30/h, quite annoying.
But great for you, I envy you |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 27-04-2013 12:22
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World Champion
Posts: 14744
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Ian Butler wrote:
In that case, it's good. You'd see it if you only brought a sprinter but not a sprinter's team. You would latch on to another sprint's wheel and suddenly the peloton would be riding 30/h, quite annoying.
But great for you, I envy you
I do that sometimes, but it never occured to me(maybe once, I can't remember it).
Maybe you should download the PCMdaily DB Ian?
Spoiler Nah, DB's won't have an effect I think 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 27-04-2013 12:34
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21379
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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I can't. The PCMdaily's DB is way too big for my computer to handle. |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 27-04-2013 12:35
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World Champion
Posts: 14744
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Ian Butler wrote:
I can't. The PCMdaily's DB is way too big for my computer to handle.
I know, I was just teasing
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| RafaMarcos |
Posted on 30-04-2013 16:12
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Junior Rider
Posts: 26
Joined: 19-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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thanks for response
In PCM12 something else changed, i assume as part of the gameplay updates. If there is a hill or cobbled section near the finish (inside the final 18k) the you cannot form a train before that climb/cobbles
you`re right, my point is mostly about non-categorized hills before finish
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| RafaMarcos |
Posted on 30-04-2013 16:18
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Junior Rider
Posts: 26
Joined: 19-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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cio93 wrote:
None of your reasons actually explain a drop of speed to 30km/h or whatever ridiculous figure many of us experienced.
Question 1) No, one of the biggest letdowns of this edition is that there is no way to change the stage classification or the Mountain/Hill ratio.
2) is therefore irrelevant, at least for this edition.
wait .. but for example .
I have pcmdaily db .. and I can see that 1st stage of Giro 2013 is definitely hilly but not flat as its in the game..
who marked this stage as flat? cyanide or db authors? if its db issue.. you say that I cant change this in editor?
sorry if my questions sound weird)) |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 30-04-2013 16:22
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 17833
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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RafaMarcos wrote:
wait .. but for example .
I have pcmdaily db .. and I can see that 1st stage of Giro 2013 is definitely hilly but not flat as its in the game..
who marked this stage as flat? cyanide or db authors? if its db issue.. you say that I cant change this in editor?
sorry if my questions sound weird))
Its decided by the game itself, not the db or stage makers 
It can't be changed
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| RafaMarcos |
Posted on 30-04-2013 16:23
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Junior Rider
Posts: 26
Joined: 19-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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aahh finally I get the point .. thanks |
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