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The dot
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| holmed |
Posted on 05-04-2013 11:03
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Junior Rider
Posts: 33
Joined: 26-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I have postd a few comments on other threads but having read through the advice on the Cobbles thread and found it very useful I wanted to ask the advice of the many experts here on the use of the dot.
I have read a lot of comments to the effect that the dot is key to success in races but how much should I be using it as opposed to simply maintaining position? A few specific questions:
Should I use the dot to keep the heart rate out of the yellow on hills, mountains and pave even if it means dropping back through the field? How far back should I be willing to drop and is it usually possible to get back to front on dot without going yellow?
Can I get away with maintain position in the early parts of hilly and mountainous stages with the stronger riders?
I had interpreted the power figure on maintain position to be an upper limit - i.e. if I set it at 70, my rider will simply use whatever effort is required to maintain position but not push harder than 70. Would a rider doing this use more energy than one maintaining position on the dot?
Any help appreciated. I have been playing the game and earlier editions for a few years but generally with big teams - eg, Sky - and on normal difficulty. I have started a career with a Continental team and I am struggling to achieve any results at all. (I am being realistic looking for top 10s on 1.2 and 2.2s not wins)
Edited by holmed on 05-04-2013 11:04
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| Ad Bot |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 05-04-2013 11:20
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Grand Tour Champion
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1. Dropping back
It depends on the situation. It is never wise to drop back on the last climb or cobbled section. But if the peloton is slow your riders can easily catch up after the climb/cobbles.
Generally you have to make sure that your captain is never dropping off the first group.
2. Maintain position
Look at the heart rate of your riders.
3. Maintain position vs. Dot
Maintain position is a limit. But the peloton does slow down and speed up. If your riders ride a steady pace, they save energy in the long run. For example the peloton normally chases the early break-away hard, so when it is going up, you can either reduce the % or set the dot for your sprinters so that they don't burn on the first 10km.
Edited by Lachi on 05-04-2013 11:21
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| holmed |
Posted on 05-04-2013 11:34
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Junior Rider
Posts: 33
Joined: 26-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Thanks
So it is usually possible early in a stage to get back on the front after a hill or section of pave without pushing your heart rate up too high. OK. I clearly need to manage the early parts of races more.
A follow up on heart rate. Does heart rate matter if it is white? By which I mean does being 1bpm off going yellow drain energy faster than well below that threshold? Or is it simply a case that anything below yellow indicates minimal expenditure of energy?
Good advice on the first 10k when the breakaway forms. I am clearly burning a lot of energy with my sprinters riding this on maintain position. |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 05-04-2013 11:45
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World Champion
Posts: 14744
Joined: 21-07-2012
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Yes, heart rate 130 & heart rate 160 is a difference.
You won't see that in the yellow bar though(if I recall correctly, that bar won't decrease as long as the heart rate is under 165), but it matters for the green bar, which is very important in longer races 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| RedDisciple |
Posted on 05-04-2013 11:59
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Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 21-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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I have a question too.
How to use the dot on a mountain when you want to attack and gain some time ? I just played a stage who ended on Mount Ventoux, I was with Saxo so I put Roche and Kreuziger on 84 dot at the start of the climb, they were protected by Chris Anker Sorensen and Majka but they never got away.
Then I put Contador on dot 84 also and he got away and won by 43 seconds.He should have been protected by Michael Rogers, but the aussie just burn out very quickly and Contador was out on his own.I think I could have won by a bigger margin with Contador, is this tactic right ?
Hard difficulty.
Edited by RedDisciple on 05-04-2013 11:59
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 05-04-2013 12:03
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World Champion
Posts: 14744
Joined: 21-07-2012
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RedDisciple wrote:
I have a question too.
How to use the dot on a mountain when you want to attack and gain some time ? I just played a stage who ended on Mount Ventoux, I was with Saxo so I put Roche and Kreuziger on 84 dot at the start of the climb, they were protected by Chris Anker Sorensen and Majka but they never got away.
Then I put Contador on dot 84 also and he got away and won by 43 seconds.He should have been protected by Michael Rogers, but the aussie just burn out very quickly and Contador was out on his own.I think I could have won by a bigger margin with Contador, is this tactic right ?
Hard difficulty.
It makes sense that you can't dot away with Kreuzinger and Roche, especially if you're against the world top
You can try a small attack(2-3 secs) until you get the gap, and then proceeding with dot...
And yeah, if you let somebody get on 84 dot, protected by an helper, than the helper could be burned out fairly quickly.
Unless the helper is called Froome 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| RedDisciple |
Posted on 05-04-2013 12:08
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Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 21-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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How high the dot should be after I attack and get a gap ?
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 05-04-2013 12:18
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World Champion
Posts: 14744
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RedDisciple wrote:
How high the dot should be after I attack and get a gap ?
That totally depends on the situation. (Current pace of the peloton, favourite or not, length of the climb, Average % of the climb, downhill coming yes or no, distance to finish etc.) And no, I can't give you an effort if you say what's the situation at your race It's just a matter of estimation...
You have to learn that by playing a lot of mountain and hilly stages
But usally, 84 dot is safe for a medium to medium-long distance climb. Normally, the red bar won't be drained then, and it's all about the yellow bar then.
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| RedDisciple |
Posted on 05-04-2013 12:26
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Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 21-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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I've always used 84 dot when I wanted to attack on a climb and it worked every time, so I will stick to this for now.Thanks.
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 05-04-2013 12:48
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 875
Joined: 17-11-2011
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Protip for forcing a dot-attack on a climb without using the attack button:
Have all your climbers/riders you can use relay at the front of the pack. Make sure your speed is correct: maintain the pack's original speed, don't speed up too much while relaying. Then, get the rider that you want to dot-attack at the front of your slow- relaying team. Next, simply dot 80-84 with your attacking rider, and have all the other riders in the relay stop pacing the peloton by hitting maintain position.
All your riders at the front should slow down, while your front rider is powering away. Since the opponents were behind the relay of your team, they must cross the distance of 5-6 bikes (of your team) to stay in touch with your dotting rider. If your team hadn't been in relay between your dot rider and the pack, the opponents would have been on his wheel from the very beginning. You simply create a gap by letting your teammates drop his wheel.
Edit: Keep in mind that this only works when you're able to pace the peloton at a manageable speed, meaning before the finale has started when leaders are attacking and the pack is chasing. The better MO stats of your team, the later in the race you can still do this trick.
Edited by ShortsNL on 05-04-2013 12:58
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| RedDisciple |
Posted on 05-04-2013 12:53
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Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 21-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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ShortsNL wrote:
Protip for forcing a dot-attack on a climb without using the attack button:
Have all your climbers/riders you can use relay at the front of the pack. Make sure your speed is correct: maintain the pack's original speed, don't speed up too much while relaying. Then, get the rider that you want to dot-attack at the front of your slow- relaying team. Next, simply dot 80-84 with your attacking rider, and have all the other riders in the relay stop pacing the peloton by hitting maintain position.
All your riders at the front should slow down, while your front rider is powering away. Since the opponents were behind the relay of your team, they must cross the distance of 5-6 bikes (of your team) stay in touch with your dotting rider. If your team hadn't been in relay between your dot rider and the pack, the opponents would have been on his wheel from the very beginning. you simply create a gap by letting your teammates drop his wheel.
Edit: Keep in mind that this only works when you're able to pace the peloton at a manageable speed, meaning before the finale has started when leaders are attacking and the pack is chasing. The better MO stats of your team, the later in the race you can still do this trick.
This sounds like cheating. 
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 05-04-2013 17:28
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3991
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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RedDisciple wrote:
How high the dot should be after I attack and get a gap ?
Someone said 84, that is probably fine, I normally use 85. The difference between the two is the red bar. 84 won't use it, 85 will, obviously you go a bit faster at 85. I've found that normally red and yellow will both empty at close to the same time on a climb at 85. Which is good for me.
As a note: If you have no yellow bar, you can't use the red bar. (If you have no green bar, you can't use either red or yellow).
AZTECA - NBCSN  |
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| RedDisciple |
Posted on 05-04-2013 17:31
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Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 21-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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So you first attack for 2-3 seconds and then you go on 85 dot or you just dot on 85 without attacking ?
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 05-04-2013 19:15
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 875
Joined: 17-11-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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RedDisciple wrote:
So you first attack for 2-3 seconds and then you go on 85 dot or you just dot on 85 without attacking ?
Kentaurus didn't mention attacking. In this case, he says he wants to have exhausted his red and yellow bar by the end of the climb, which means he is referring to the final climb of a stage.
Final climbs should be treated like time trials. The best thing to do is to ride as even as possible throughout the entire climb and be fully exhausted right at the finish line. This is why the dot is good here.
Attacking in mountain stages serves little purpose. On flat stages it can be useful because there you can prevent your opponents from wheelsucking you. On climbs there is no drafting element so there is little advantage to be gained with attacking. Unless you are playing a very tactical game, where you are forcing an early attack with an outsider or to blow up the entire stage early, or you have the strongest climber in the field and its easier to just attack and ride away, there is little purpose to be had in attacking.
The method I described earlier is somewhat useful because it gives your rider a head-start at no cost for him, meaning your opponents will have to do more work. The problem here is, that you are leaving teammates behind that you could have used to protect your main rider up the climb and save further energy. This is a trade-off that you always need to consider when attacking with your leader or luxury domestique on a mountain stage. |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 06-04-2013 01:02
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3991
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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ShortsNL wrote:
RedDisciple wrote:
So you first attack for 2-3 seconds and then you go on 85 dot or you just dot on 85 without attacking ?
Kentaurus didn't mention attacking. In this case, he says he wants to have exhausted his red and yellow bar by the end of the climb, which means he is referring to the final climb of a stage.
Final climbs should be treated like time trials. The best thing to do is to ride as even as possible throughout the entire climb and be fully exhausted right at the finish line. This is why the dot is good here.
Attacking in mountain stages serves little purpose. On flat stages it can be useful because there you can prevent your opponents from wheelsucking you. On climbs there is no drafting element so there is little advantage to be gained with attacking. Unless you are playing a very tactical game, where you are forcing an early attack with an outsider or to blow up the entire stage early, or you have the strongest climber in the field and its easier to just attack and ride away, there is little purpose to be had in attacking.
The method I described earlier is somewhat useful because it gives your rider a head-start at no cost for him, meaning your opponents will have to do more work. The problem here is, that you are leaving teammates behind that you could have used to protect your main rider up the climb and save further energy. This is a trade-off that you always need to consider when attacking with your leader or luxury domestique on a mountain stage.
Very correct, my method is certainly built for going up for the mountain top finish. Or a last climb of the day with only a downhill left (No flat or uphill after).
One trick (almost cheating) which kinda gets brought up, a very easy way to ride everyone off is get your best two climbers, have the 2nd best protect the 1st. Set the first to 85 dot, and get him to the very front (ideally you should already be very close to that anyway). Have your protecting rider attack, and immediately set your leader to follow the attack, do this for 2-3 seconds to get a time gap, then go back to protecting your lead on 85 dot.
To add onto this, if you do it completely perfectly you have your 2nd best also popping his energy gel at this time (on fire). And then click the gel for your leader at the time of the attack. The protector will burn out quickly still, but will last a little bit longer, and the leader should just be getting to his gel now when his protector is gone.
Edited by Kentaurus on 06-04-2013 01:06
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