Trofimov is a one of a kind rider. Luckily for Tinkoff he's russian :-p
I like the idea of level 4 riders for promotion. Even though as others state it is hard to get riders to 4.100 in PCT (doable however with wildcards). My team will be way stronger next year when a lot of my riders hit 4.100. I just hope my oldies singings of Sella and Pozatto will keep me up for that...
Alakagom wrote:
Nice post SotD, gotta answer some parts though!
Why do you think having many Level 4 riders in trying to achieve promotion season is good for PCT team?
You can't in no way max them out at PCT level (unless they start already veryyy high in XP which doesn't happen often I'd say) so they will have one year wasted. Only wait is to loan them out, and that weakens the team leaving them in a limbo ie. keep their best level 4 riders in order to achieve promotion or loan them out and risk it a bit. That's why I did with Van der Lijke and it looks like it paid off, but with him in the team we would have done better in few stage races I am sure. To be fair I am happy to timed it perfectly with that, I bought many talents in my first season and now they all are 4.00 I am going to PT where I can max them out, nice luck I think, no need to loan etc
Good point. But in the ideal world you have foreseen this atleast one season, ideally two seasons, before you go for the promotion, so the ones you will have in level 4 can either A) Be loaned out, while you loan in a compliment rider or B) Have a similar rider you can max out. Like I said, Team Puma is a school example of how it is done. Demare is loaned out to ensure they can max him out in the PCT, while using his qualities (which are enough to ensure quite some points), the same have been done this season with Vogt, Felline, Bar, Bol and Kelderman while quite a lot of others are also loaned out, so the team is ready to push, while still developping their riders to the max.
You are true with your talents, in the term that you fancy developping themselves while they might not get you any rewards. That is what I pointed out in the end, that if the manager is ready to scramble the team for the benefit of the win. Few are, and that is the reason why many promoted teams demote again, simply because they enjoy being able to use the talents they have wasted time and money on. It would seem like a complete waste of time to have bought a fairly decent talent, only to sell him once you get him to level 4.00 and just needing one season to develop him. But too many of these take the toll on the points count, and could easily be the deficit between staying up, or going down. But playing the game, should also be about enjoying the way up, and be able to enjoy a stay in the PCT aswell.
It is one of the things that make the game so brilliantly thought up, that you can play it in so many different ways, without ever really failling, nor excelling. And the fact that people play the game differently makes it impossble to tell whether or not your ideas are correct or not. I have to give a lot of credits to SN for making the game so deep in terms of variety and ideas. I spend hours on end using my statistics, analyzing and stuff like that to really find out what way to go, and yet I keep on noticing, that whatever works for a period of time, winds up being a bad idea. So instead I start looking for niches, which makes the game that much cooler.
The thing you say about Marquez is true at PT level ( and Quickstep overall is true). However you said not having great climber at PCT is ''But this season shows that it is not live or dead''.
Actually Marquez, bar Brajkovic has been easily the 2nd best climber in the division He's been scarily consistent and winning lots of stages as well. I am not sure how the Individual rankings look like since we didn't have them for a long time but he has to be up there close to the top for sure.
I meant that it was not live or dead in the PT rankings. Not the PCT. I'm sorry if that was written down wrong
I don't get this part you wrote. Your point makes out that Quickstep won't have over 1m to spend as well? That points looks this way to me at least .
Only we (and CSC) selected the hardest goals this season 23/23 points and with some yet to race hopefully we get 75/100 which is very nice considering how hard some were. And I assume if we would go to win division that gives some more money that finishing 2nd, 3rd or 5th etc. So we should really have same amount of money to spend, if not slightly more if we would finish the goals well and finish above them (I guess)
I don't know how much money you have from goal (any of the teams), so when I speak of money I mean the wage cap. And if Heineken lets Brajkovic go, they will have more than 1mio left of cap to sign a strong rider, while if you keep your team intact you will have something like 500K
I terms of what money the teams will have for training, trading and stuff like that, I have absolutely no idea, so I haven't implemented that into the thoughts at all.
We were never in PT 13th in PCT in first season and now fighting to win PCT and promote for first time in PT.
I never said you were - I just say I think that promoting this season might be the reason you demote again after next season. So the comment is meant as a retrospect for the future, hehe...
I am not sure of my strategy yet, at the minute I find the PCT circuit to be more fun than PT, that could change though. I am confident though if we go with strategy of staying up, we could have a solid chance. But we'll see
Interesting thoughts. I would never dream of not trying to stay up, even if I do also find the PCT ranks intruiging. I'm really sorry that my shitty late started CT team had to stop, as I would really love to try out that part aswell.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Two biggest powergamers in the man-game having a chat, should i take some popcorn?
That idea with changing the whole team is so terrible SotD. Maybe it would work, but i would lost all the respect for involved manager and never would negotiate with him.
Why is that? It is just a way of playing the game. It sure as hell isn't the best way, so why would you be angry at that way of trying to do something different?
You could see it as a team that lost it's sponsor and thus all it's riders at a very tricky point, but where the new sponsor was already there and having the PT license, but had to sign riders from scratch
I don't think it will ever happen, but I wouldn't cut off anyone who would try to do so. I don't think it will inflate the marked that there is a PT team with no riders really. A lot of PT teams have 1-2mio free to buy riders each season, so I don't see much of a difference that one suddenly have 3,5. The riders he sold will probably go to the other PT teams, who then will have a bit less to put into the Free Agents Marked, which would mean that prizes for the riders would be almost the same as normal.
roturn wrote:
I might go exactly the other way a bit like Santander did for years.
Keeping all the team together this time and just swap 2-3 veterans for 2-3 talents.
That is a way to go, certainly. The only problem I think, is that there are no talents even close to what Madrazo and Tenorio was at the time. So you can't build a team around two very very superior riders, that could both podium at the Grand Tours as soon as they were developped. The level of competition is much tougher now, and the talents are less good.
It was a clever move, back then, but I don't think it will work the 2nd time around
tsmoha wrote:
Pretty spot on my team, unfortunatelly As somewhere said before, my team would need a huge upgrade to be competitive on PT-level. So I'm not that over-ambitious when it comes to defending our current spot.. Rogers, Visconti and Del Nero were likely to leave. Koren... with this AI (where the bunch sits up too often), he's already struggling on PCT-level sometimes (as to be seen in Portugal). May sell him for 2mio to a PCT/CT-team
Haha, yeah if you can sell him for 2mio I guess I would do that
But Koren could potentially be very interesting in the PT. I don't know how the PCM14 works like that in comparison to PCM13, but in earlier seasons those "top"TT'ers with a good mountainstat actually got a pretty good points haul, because the GC riders wouldn't waste energy on races with no mountains. It would be a waste of their 80+ MO stat. So those 78-80TT stat riders with 73-75MO and similar HI would infact get some very good results.
SportingNonsense wrote:
Trofimov is clearly the rider to sign for a newly promoted team then. First Sony Ericsson, now Tinkoff!
Although it is worth noting that it was not Sony Ericsson's first PT season. They went 2nd in CT -> Bottom in PT -> Top of CT -> Top of PT. That clearly helps - as Tinkoff aside, the best promoted teams this year are Bouygues and Vueling, after bouncing back.
Yeah I regret not getting him, but 1,5mio. I can't believe that it is possible to build a competitive team with riders on that kinda wage, but apparently it is
How does it look when going back in time? I'm sure you are better at finding these things than I am. Santander did quite well when they promoted I think, and I guess some other teams must have also done well.
roturn wrote:
I might go exactly the other way a bit like Santander did for years.
Keeping all the team together this time and just swap 2-3 veterans for 2-3 talents.
That is a way to go, certainly. The only problem I think, is that there are no talents even close to what Madrazo and Tenorio was at the time. So you can't build a team around two very very superior riders, that could both podium at the Grand Tours as soon as they were developped. The level of competition is much tougher now, and the talents are less good.
It was a clever move, back then, but I don't think it will work the 2nd time around
Did not necessarily mean the elite leader decision as I like have a all around team.
What I meant is keeping the main team together without changing a lot. So only a very few changes.
Heine wrote:
Trofimov is a one of a kind rider. Luckily for Tinkoff he's russian :-p
I like the idea of level 4 riders for promotion. Even though as others state it is hard to get riders to 4.100 in PCT (doable however with wildcards). My team will be way stronger next year when a lot of my riders hit 4.100. I just hope my oldies singings of Sella and Pozatto will keep me up for that...
Yeah, your team is in a good position next season, if you manage to stay up. Zepunkte should do well, Rick Zabel should do well, Yonathan Monsalve should do well, Mathias Brändle should do well, Phan Age Haugard should do OK, Gregory Brenes should do OK and Bouhanni, Preidler and Anacona likewise.
It is actually a pretty scary team I think, especially because you can free up almost 1,2mio from releasing just two riders, and you already have Flügel and Klemme who are both easily competitive, and could be trained very good. If you stay up, I would be dissapointed not to see you in the top 10, perhaps even charging at the lower top 5 spots.
roturn wrote:
I might go exactly the other way a bit like Santander did for years.
Keeping all the team together this time and just swap 2-3 veterans for 2-3 talents.
That is a way to go, certainly. The only problem I think, is that there are no talents even close to what Madrazo and Tenorio was at the time. So you can't build a team around two very very superior riders, that could both podium at the Grand Tours as soon as they were developped. The level of competition is much tougher now, and the talents are less good.
It was a clever move, back then, but I don't think it will work the 2nd time around
Did not necessarily mean the elite leader decision as I like have a all around team.
What I meant is keeping the main team together without changing a lot. So only a very few changes.
Ahh yes OK. I used to have a very allround team aswell with decent sprinters, cobblers and TTers and good climbers and hilly riders. This season I have absolutely no cobblers, and that kinda annoys me so I want to bring in one, atleast one that can do a 10-20th result in a few of the cobbled races. Tom David needs a couple of seasons to do that.
Like I said earlier you have one of my absolute favorite teams, so I really hope you stay up. I think your team have the lowest amounts of 80+stats in the PT, and those they have are TT, PRL, ACC and FIG I don't think there have been a single team, that I can remember, that haven't had ATLEAST one rider with 80+ in either MO, HI, COB or SPR before, so it will be quite sensational if you do infact stay up.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Two biggest powergamers in the man-game having a chat, should i take some popcorn?
That idea with changing the whole team is so terrible SotD. Maybe it would work, but i would lost all the respect for involved manager and never would negotiate with him.
Why is that? It is just a way of playing the game. It sure as hell isn't the best way, so why would you be angry at that way of trying to do something different?
You could see it as a team that lost it's sponsor and thus all it's riders at a very tricky point, but where the new sponsor was already there and having the PT license, but had to sign riders from scratch
I don't think it will ever happen, but I wouldn't cut off anyone who would try to do so. I don't think it will inflate the marked that there is a PT team with no riders really. A lot of PT teams have 1-2mio free to buy riders each season, so I don't see much of a difference that one suddenly have 3,5. The riders he sold will probably go to the other PT teams, who then will have a bit less to put into the Free Agents Marked, which would mean that prizes for the riders would be almost the same as normal.
Well, i value continuity and development of riders and cycling regions more than anything else in the man-game. It does have nothing to do with how much the choosen "strategy" can be succesful or winning, but rather how the manager approaches his team. I would think very low about manager/team owner that would simply fire all the riders or completely leave his designated focus just because he sees that as possibility to be higher in the rankings. (of course you can role-play some dramatic changes regarding the owner of the team, but i was not talking about this situation).
This is rather a role-playing thing and Metinvest manager simply favours managers that have the same feel for building the dynasty, rather than powerhouses that would be completely different every year). Again, this is hypothetical situation, as i dont see anyone doing that, so i just reacted on what you said as one of the options.
Edit: Btw. my main plan was very similar to Alakagoms, as i will end the season with half of the team on something like 4.40 or 3.20 and PT promotion would be ideal. But i was not able to support these talents with so good leaders to push for promotion at all (actually relegation is closer). Now it will take hours and hours to think what to do now. Some of my best riders will have to go on loan, so next year will be all about avoiding relegation (if we will avoid it this year). Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 23-01-2015 12:18
Fair enough... I have never really understood the point in people wanting to do business with one manager, and not the other, despite being probably able to get a better deal from the manager they dislike, but that is probably because I have never said no to a manger because I dislike dealing with them, but have experienced it the other way around. I have some PMs from previous seasons where I contact some managers about the availability of some riders, without even putting in an offer and the reply is simply "I don't want to do deals with you at all".
I know I have previously had some dodgy ways of dealing, but I still don't understand that you really make things personal in a game on the internet. That was actually also the point to the fact that you would lose respect for people who changed the team drastically. I don't understand it. But I guess I get more clever the more I read and hear people arguing
Edit: Btw. my main plan was very similar to Alakagoms, as i will end the season with half of the team on something like 4.40 or 3.20 and PT promotion would be ideal. But i was not able to support these talents with so good leaders to push for promotion at all (actually relegation is closer). Now it will take hours and hours to think what to do now. Some of my best riders will have to go on loan, so next year will be all about avoiding relegation (if we will avoid it this year).
You have some cool talents, so I hope you can get them developped without it interfering too much with your ability to compete in the PCT. The talents need to be 4.100 to give you points, even in the PCT, I think. Well except of Zmorka and Grosu of course, those should do well next season. They can't develop into level 4.100 in your team next season? I mean, Tour de l'Avenir + wild cards perhaps? I haven't checked
SotD wrote:
Fair enough... I have never really understood the point in people wanting to do business with one manager, and not the other, despite being probably able to get a better deal from the manager they dislike, but that is probably because I have never said no to a manger because I dislike dealing with them, but have experienced it the other way around. I have some PMs from previous seasons where I contact some managers about the availability of some riders, without even putting in an offer and the reply is simply "I don't want to do deals with you at all".
I know I have previously had some dodgy ways of dealing, but I still don't understand that you really make things personal in a game on the internet. That was actually also the point to the fact that you would lose respect for people who changed the team drastically. I don't understand it. But I guess I get more clever the more I read and hear people arguing
Role-playing wise mate! I role play the manager and it has nothing to do with any actual personnal connections. But with that being said, it is only natural that you deal with some people better than with others.
Anyway i hope you did not get it wrong, as i would be happy to meet you at the transfer market (iirc we dont have any history during transfers?) and thing you described with "no deal with you" seems also crazy to me.
Absolutely, I agree with you that you have better personal relations with some than others. There are managers that I completely trust and whom I like a lot (Sounds dodgy), and clearly I will move towards them first.
No no, I didn't get it as you didn't want to deal with me. I guess I have one of your transfertargets, also
Yeah it is crazy to me aswell that people would conclude that they didn't want to do deals with me at all. But oh well, them on that. I would never go on to let it bite them in the ass, if they ever turned to me asking, although at times I had felt the urge to do so. I guess we all mature in time, though, and despite of this being "just a game" I, and others, tend to live so much into it, that it can make you both angry and frustrated, although it really shouldn't.
All this talk about transfers and tactics make me want to start the off season
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Edit: Btw. my main plan was very similar to Alakagoms, as i will end the season with half of the team on something like 4.40 or 3.20 and PT promotion would be ideal. But i was not able to support these talents with so good leaders to push for promotion at all (actually relegation is closer). Now it will take hours and hours to think what to do now. Some of my best riders will have to go on loan, so next year will be all about avoiding relegation (if we will avoid it this year).
Well if they are at 4.40 then all it takes is a GT wildcard + Avenir, or GT wildcard + enough HC race days (or other wildcards). There are only 6 GT wildcard spots available, but Jaguar have been able to ride a GT for the past two years after less than 6 teams applied.
SotD wrote:
roturn wrote:
I might go exactly the other way a bit like Santander did for years.
Keeping all the team together this time and just swap 2-3 veterans for 2-3 talents.
That is a way to go, certainly. The only problem I think, is that there are no talents even close to what Madrazo and Tenorio was at the time. So you can't build a team around two very very superior riders, that could both podium at the Grand Tours as soon as they were developped. The level of competition is much tougher now, and the talents are less good.
And more significantly, the training rules have been tightened. Both Madrazo and Tenorio were trained in 2 MO stats - before being maxed - when training was cheaper than it is now.
I guess we can consider that the Puma tactic, since they valued Herklotz over promotion. Or even just the Herklotz tactic, if cio doesn't return and he becomes a free agent again!
If Cio doesn't return, the free agent market will be interesting to say the least. Just looking quickly at who could go for big wages off the top of my head:
Nerz
Bongiorno
Herklotz
Kelderman
Vogt
Sutterlin
Daniel
Ringheim
Ciolek
Demare
Lander
Felline
Bar
SportingNonsense wrote:
Trofimov is clearly the rider to sign for a newly promoted team then. First Sony Ericsson, now Tinkoff!
Although it is worth noting that it was not Sony Ericsson's first PT season. They went 2nd in CT -> Bottom in PT -> Top of CT -> Top of PT. That clearly helps - as Tinkoff aside, the best promoted teams this year are Bouygues and Vueling, after bouncing back.
Yeah I regret not getting him, but 1,5mio. I can't believe that it is possible to build a competitive team with riders on that kinda wage, but apparently it is
How does it look when going back in time? I'm sure you are better at finding these things than I am. Santander did quite well when they promoted I think, and I guess some other teams must have also done well.
You only need to go back to the 2013 season to find relatively successful newly promoted teams with three of them ending in the top 10 that season.
Seeing the discussion on how to survive/build a team, it almost looks like I did everything wrong as I brought in a bunch of level 1/2 riders as newly promoted, only to loan them out
But yeah, there isn't really any answer to how to best build a team. Personally, I can't really wait for the 2016 season where many of the Norwegians I signed before the 2013 season get maxed out. It will be just great to finally see talents develop to the end in your team (I guess). Even though such an approach most likely isn't giving me the maximum amount of possible points, for me it's the best way to go on how to build a team, as it's the one I think is most fun for me
And I suspect it's that way for a lot of others as well, that the best way to build a team isn't the way giving most points, but the one being most fun. Of course, if they can be perfectly combined, that's obviously an advantage. But luckily this game is far away from easy
He's been scarily consistent and winning lots of stages as well. I am not sure how the Individual rankings look like since we didn't have them for a long time but he has to be up there close to the top for sure.
