yeah recognized this problem while snipping the pictures, too. I made this Tour de Suisse primary for PCMfrance, because they are planning a 2003 DB with a complete calendar update. This is why I don't reduced them to 9 stages. I also don't know if the numbers of intermediate sprints is compatible with the 2012 classification, so its maybe not primary a variant for the current game.
Criterium du Dauphine 2003
Note: I already posted some of these, but now all together for a complete picture. Some of these stages (2+3+6) were original created by Roman-Kreuziger, but I made a lot of changes to them (slopes, vegetationl, cities, road-marks etc.), but gave him credit as well.
Had some time and looked for a new route of a fantasy tour de france variant. I know, there are already a lot of them out there, but better too much than to little, right?!. So, I tried to find an interesting route, with variety and also a bit harder than my variant I made for PCM11. What I'm presenting you now is some kind of beta-version, so feel free to give your opinion on the course. I also added some thoughts to the profiles, so you can understand what I was thinking planning this this way.
Stage 1: Prolog
Traditionally Prolog along the coast of Nice.
Stage2: Flat
Flat-Stage but with some challenges. After passing Monaco there will be the first climb of the Tour "Col de la Madone de Gorbia". Didn't evaluate his average stepness, but probably a 2nd category climb. Before the finish a little hill, not long but maybe good for a break or to hurt some sprinters.
Stage 3: Flat
Riding towards Marseille, there are further mountains, mostly to make the route more interesting and to give the possibility to gather points for the KOM if you have not that good climber to do it in the alpes or pyrenees.
Stage 4: Mountain
First Big Showdown. Thought it would be interesting to put a big mountain this early because of three reasons. 1) you cannot bring your teamleader in mediocre form to the tour while hoping he will be at his top by the middle of the tour. 2)If we're honest, the Tour is usually a little bit boring the first week. But this has not be the case in a fantasy-route. 3) It was too alluring to pass the Mont Ventoux if the Tour does start in that region^^
Stage 5: Flat
Next day for the sprinters. But I tried to make it a little bit harder, so mostly uphill towards the finish. Maybe I give it another look and try to make even an small uphil finish, but wasn't sure at this point because the route gets really tough the next weeks?!
Stage 6: Flat
Yet another flat stage. But not that easy, but also not that tough, though^^.
Stage 7: TTT
I admit it, I have a liability for team-timetrials.^^ I like to use the TTT instead of an ITT, because pure climbers will not loose much or any time if they have a good team around them. In the days of Wiggins it would be a nobrainer-tour if there would be another ITT instead of a TTT, at least in my opinion. On the other hand I choose not that long course, so the gaps shouldn't be that big. Also it is interesting to have it after the first mountain-stage. So you need a really good team if you want to do well, here.
REST DAY
Stage 8: Mountain
So here we are, first day in the pyrenees. Col de Peyresourde and Col d'Aspin to warm up the legs and then the mountain-top finish to Hautacam.
Stage 9: Probably Mountain
One and done. Okay, not quite. On the way out of the pyrenees I put some climbs in it, but tried to choose not the hardest slopes of these mountains. Here's the order: Col de Soulor, Col de Aubisque, Marie-Blanque, Col de Bouseou, Col de Soudet. I'm also planning to erase these little hill before the finish, so it will be more than 60km downhill once passed the Soudet. Multiple reasons: 1) I wanted to make a stage where you can gain points for your KOM. 2) Also to have a good shot on a breakaway win 3) There are stages to come and we already had 2 mountain-top finishes. So there is simply no need to it.
Stage 10: ITT
Big jump to the northwest atlantic coast and the first long ITT (55km). Part of the course is the Pas Le Gios, a tiny and slippy road through the atlantic, which does only come at low tide to light. I hope when I set the right region the game makes it also windy. However, beeing at the coast means a lot of water on the right- and left-hand-side of the roads which I think is something entirely else than the usual stuff.
Stage 11: Flat
Beeing in the northern france does not only mean windy, but rather flat stages. Whatever, I put some small hills in it, which will hopefully bring some 4 category-climbs out of it^^.
Stage 12: Flat
Typically sprinter-stage. Nothing special.
Stage 13: Flat
Third consecutive flat-stage, time to gather more points for the green jersey or to recuperate for the contenders.
Stage 14: Flat/Hilly
A quick visit in Switzerland towards the well-known city of Morzine. I think it should be classified as a flat-stage, mabye hilly. Anyway, some up and downs here and a slightly increasing road to the finish.
REST DAY
Stage 15: Mountain ITT
Very steep mountain (Col de Joux-Plane) and a technical descent. Thought if would be interesting to put not only an uphill into ITT, but also a downhill part into the course. Especially guys like nibali or sanchez could win such a stage and not always the usual suspects.
Stage 16: Mountain
Heavy Alpine-Stage! Climbs: Col des Aravis, Col des Saises, Col de Meraillet, Cormet de Roseland, Col de l'Iseran. With two more mountain-stages to come and the fact that the iseran was never choosed as a mountain-top finish I set here a downhill finish.
Stage 17: Mountain
Short stage with a very tough finish. Climbs: Col du Mont-Cenis (short-side), Col de Montgenvre and the finish on the Col de Granon. As you can see, very steep and something for the slope corrector^^.
Stage 18: Mountain:
Queen's stage! Climbs: Col de Madeleine, Col de la Croix de Fer, Col du Mollard, Col du Telegraphe, Col du Galibier, Alpe d'Huez. But I'm not that sure about the route. 1) The climbs are very often used, but on the other hand I guess everybody likes them 2) The length is a bit too long maybe, but after the last two "short" stages I wanted to do a heavy at the end. 3) I'm in the alpes, so which climbs should I take instead of them? Col de Vars, Izoard, Allos, Bonette are out of question for me, because I made them in my last variant for PCM11. I thought about the slope to Chamrousse, but they are mabye not steep enough. Maybe La Plagne, but I wanted to avoid long flat parts in the valleys. So, as you can see I'm not so sure about this stage, any advice would be very appreciated.
Stage 19: Flat
Flat-stage with some small hills in it, mostly to make it a bit more tough and to bring in some mountain-classifications. Maybe a good chance to gather the needed points or going into a breakaway.
Stage 20: Flat
Last chance for the sprinters as the stage finishes in Versailles.
Stage 21: ITT
To be honest, I hate the tradionally stage to the Champs Elysees, its such a waste. On this Tour I prefer some classic stuff, last stage in Paris as an ITT. Mainly because I put these heavy climbs into it, I thought it would be an interesting idea to deciced the tour not before the very last moment. Since the ITT on the Monument of Cyandie isn't working I will try to get this done with a selfmade city. Oh and the later profile will not that much up and down, I'll make it more flat.
Like I sad, any feedback, advice, constructive criticism or compliment is very appreciated. I'm planning to complete this variant probalby in a few weeks as I want to make them with some eye for detail.
Edited by bigggassi on 19-09-2012 04:47
I think its great. The mountains early on in the race, the mountain ITT, and the stage to Alpe d'Huez in particular are brilliant and I'd love to give that a go in my career Edited by Alphabet on 19-09-2012 15:32
Alphabet wrote:
I think its great. The mountains early on in the race, the mountain ITT, and the stage to Alpe d'Huez in particular are brilliant and I'd love to give that a go in my career
Great to hear you like it. One thing I want to know and mabye someone can help me here: If an ITT going on the descent, does have the descend-skill that huge impact on the outcome of the race (in PCM12)?
I think theres to much TT. First a prolog, then a couple af stages later a TTT, two stages and then an ITT, later a mountain ITT, and it all finishes with another ITT...
Since the ITT on the Monument of Cyandie isn't working I will try to get this done with a selfmade city.
Then you'll have to include the tunnel! Edited by Maddrengen on 19-09-2012 18:03
Yeah thought about that, too. But I really wanna to integrate a TTT, an ITT in between the pyrenees and alpes, also an mountain-itt instead of whole mountain stage and the last itt in the end. But you're right 4 ITT's should be more than enough. So I thought about change the opening prologoe to a circuit race from nice to the col d'eze and right back, probably with enough space between the slope so that the game will classified it as a hilly stage. Also a very good possibility to award all 4 jerseys with the first stage. The other point I could do is to make the TTT shorter, something around 25km instead of 40. What do you mean? Btw, thanks for your advice.
Edited by bigggassi on 19-09-2012 18:11
I've downloaded your 2000 Tour, and, sorry for saying it like that, i get very disappointed because of your slopes (i've seen 17-18% on top of the Galibier, and other crazy slopes ... ) So i think that you shouln't privilege the fast work but you should take time to correct your stages ...
Sorry to be so unpleasant but this is what i think
nathounet87 wrote:
I've downloaded your 2000 Tour, and, sorry for saying it like that, i get very disappointed because of your slopes (i've seen 17-18% on top of the Galibier, and other crazy slopes ... ) So i think that you shouln't privilege the fast work but you should take time to correct your stages ...
Sorry to be so unpleasant but this is what i think
Sorry If I made a little mistake here. I looked into that stage and yes, there were a really short part which had too steep percentages. I corrected that now and made also some further adjustments regarding the max slopes. But here's the thing:
1) As I uploaded them all to the StageDB, there are also the ztcs-file included. Mostly for the reason we can adjust the stages for your own desire, I guess. It took me just a few minutes to correct these problems, because like I said it wasn't the case that the whole slope was 18% or so, it was just a very little part.
2) I'm definitely not the most expierenced stagemaker on this forum and I do very appreciate any advice I can get. But there are always a lot of ways to telling this. I do not criticize that you were been some kind of unpleasant (even I don't get that point why you're doing so) but you could be more precise here. Because the informations you gave to me are very vague, I really don't know of which "crazy slopes" you're talking about.
So, you're very welcome to give me more detailed informations that I could make this right.
Stage 15 im worried about
Mostly because of the AI
for an ITT the AI will balance its effort over the whole course, so 50% up and 50% down...
But downhill is easier so they use less energy.
A human player will use lots more energy uphill, and save it downhill. As it is downhill you lose very little time. This makes this kind of stage very easy to win.
You can gain upto 1'00 up hill (depending) and lose 10-20" down..
At least this happened in PCM11, may be different in 12
otherwise a good route, if a little TT heavy... (can be changed by halving stage15 so its all up )
Edited by TheManxMissile on 19-09-2012 21:38
TheManxMissile wrote:
Stage 15 im worried about
Mostly because of the AI
for an ITT the AI will balance its effort over the whole course, so 50% up and 50% down...
But downhill is easier so they use less energy.
A human player will use lots more energy uphill, and save it downhill. As it is downhill you lose very little time. This makes this kind of stage very easy to win.
You can gain upto 1'00 up hill (depending) and lose 10-20" down..
At least this happened in PCM11, may be different in 12
otherwise a good route, if a little TT heavy... (can be changed by halving stage15 so its all up )
Thanks for your opinion. I'm worried about that, too, at least in terms of what I want to reach with that kind of stage and what the AI will provide. Your mentioned problem is still existing in Pcm12. But its an issue with the whole timetrail-AI even on the flat ITT's. But I saw the problem in another way, because I have the feeling the CPU does NOT balance its efforts over the whole course. I do always catch them before the finish and gather the most time on the later parts of the course. So I think they burn their energy too quick. The only thing which can "solve" this problem is setting the difficulty-level higher to get realistic gaps. In the end, this is something what everybody has to decide for themselfs. Either they are going to a likely win or they setting the difficulty-level higher to have a challenge.
But I will test it anyway and if I recognize that it didn't worked out as expected I will change something.
bigggassi wrote:
1) As I uploaded them all to the StageDB, there are also the ztcs-file included. Mostly for the reason we can adjust the stages for your own desire, I guess. It took me just a few minutes to correct these problems, because like I said it wasn't the case that the whole slope was 18% or so, it was just a very little part.
Not really. I believe that from all downloaders in the stage DB, few will know how to use the stage editor, and even less of them would be downloading a stage knowing that they'd need to edit it. Usually you expect it already ready to go when you download it (not saying that these aren't ready to go - they're playable, and etc, but I'm saying that you'll hardly see people DLing stages so that they edit them and then play them).
Besides, the reason is in fact explained when uploading to the stage DB, you're asked to upload the .zcts so that the stages can be converted for future games, in case the stagemaker is not active anymore/if he doesn't want to, or something like that
But anyway, even if it could have been worded better, take it as constructive criticism for the next ones
Ah, and btw, any chance you upload this small edit on the stage?
bigggassi wrote:
1) As I uploaded them all to the StageDB, there are also the ztcs-file included. Mostly for the reason we can adjust the stages for your own desire, I guess. It took me just a few minutes to correct these problems, because like I said it wasn't the case that the whole slope was 18% or so, it was just a very little part.
Not really. I believe that from all downloaders in the stage DB, few will know how to use the stage editor, and even less of them would be downloading a stage knowing that they'd need to edit it. Usually you expect it already ready to go when you download it (not saying that these aren't ready to go - they're playable, and etc, but I'm saying that you'll hardly see people DLing stages so that they edit them and then play them).
Besides, the reason is in fact explained when uploading to the stage DB, you're asked to upload the .zcts so that the stages can be converted for future games, in case the stagemaker is not active anymore/if he doesn't want to, or something like that
But anyway, even if it could have been worded better, take it as constructive criticism for the next ones
Ah, and btw, any chance you upload this small edit on the stage?
As I wrote, I don't take this as an offense from nathounet87, not at all. I was just saying that he could be more precise, because besides that "Top Galibier"-Thing I don't know exactly what he is talking about. Btw, as I'm now watching on these created stages again I would make a lot of thing differently (better). As you mentioned somewhere else, its not that good idea to begin with a GT when you a "noob" on stagemaking. So with more than 130 created stages I do have now some more expierence in making good ones. At least I have the feeling
Regarding the StageDB I was just guessing, but great this problem is now solved^^.
And yeah I upload the updated stage as soon I can.
The amount of TT is good, it balances out the more than usual number of climbs for GC contenders. 100km of flat time trialling will force climbers to make use of the mountain stages, which are well designed.
bigggassi wrote:
Btw, as I'm now watching on these created stages again I would make a lot of thing differently (better). As you mentioned somewhere else, its not that good idea to begin with a GT when you a "noob" on stagemaking. So with more than 130 created stages I do have now some more expierence in making good ones. At least I have the feeling
If you decided to take one more look at least on the 2000 Tour stages it certainly wouldn't be a horrible idea I guess with experience things can only get better indeed
![pcmdaily.com/stagedb/stage.php?stage_id=983[/img]<br />
<br />
Tirreno - Adriatico 2003, Stage 7<br />
S. Benedetto Del Tronto- S. Benedetto Del Tronto<br />
[img]https://pcmdaily.com/stagedb/images/2003_Tirreno_-_Adriatico_7_1.PNG](https://pcmdaily.com/stagedb/stage.phpstage_id983[/img]<br />
<br />
Tirreno - Adriatico 2003, Stage 7<br />
S. Benedetto Del Tronto- S. Benedetto Del Tronto<br />
[img]https://pcmdaily.com/stagedb/images/2003_Tirreno_-_Adriatico_7_1.PNG)
) So i think that you shouln't privilege the fast work but you should take time to correct your stages ... 
