I agree with Bikex and Ulrich on that the gross/net swap deal point. I think it's an undeniable fact that the trend over the last decade has been towards swap deals, and this means quieter transfers with fewer opportunities for teams for work their way up the ladder, which I disagree with. Nobody is asking for a system that hurts swaps, just a system that doesn't artificially boost them.
I also am a bit confused why we're concerned with removing cash from the game generally. The amount of cash only matters compared to the prices of everything. If it were really just about the amount of cash, we could make wages, training, and/or wildcards cost more, or give everyone proportionally smaller budgets from the start, and it would achieve the ultimate same purpose. You don't need a tax for that.
What a gross tax does is punish teams that make a lot of money through cash sales, and traditionally we wanted that because training was out of control and causing DB inflation. The tax also makes your initial budget a bit more important, though I don't think that was the motivating factor. To the extent we use a tax now, I don't think siphoning money generally should be our goal. It should be to make the game as fun as possible, which to me means more transfer activity. And net tax incentivizes transfer activity generally by only punishing money leftover after all that activity is complete. And so, to the extent gross tax incentivizes swaps and other loopholes rather than encouraging general market activity, I favor net tax. And I say that as someone already committed to training a guy for the next 5 years, who this probably hurts in the long run.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
I agree with Bikex and Ulrich on that the gross/net swap deal point. I think it's an undeniable fact that the trend over the last decade has been towards swap deals, and this means quieter transfers with fewer opportunities for teams for work their way up the ladder, which I disagree with. Nobody is asking for a system that hurts swaps, just a system that doesn't artificially boost them.
I also am a bit confused why we're concerned with removing cash from the game generally. The amount of cash only matters compared to the prices of everything. If it were really just about the amount of cash, we could make wages, training, and/or wildcards cost more, or give everyone proportionally smaller budgets from the start, and it would achieve the ultimate same purpose. You don't need a tax for that.
What a gross tax does is punish teams that make a lot of money through cash sales, and traditionally we wanted that because training was out of control and causing DB inflation. The tax also makes your initial budget a bit more important, though I don't think that was the motivating factor. To the extent we use a tax now, I don't think siphoning money generally should be our goal. It should be to make the game as fun as possible, which to me means more transfer activity. And net tax incentivizes transfer activity generally by only punishing money leftover after all that activity is complete. And so, to the extent gross tax incentivizes swaps and other loopholes rather than encouraging general market activity, I favor net tax. And I say that as someone already committed to training a guy for the next 5 years, who this probably hurts in the long run.
I am part of the MG for only my 3rd season now, therefore lack experience in how the transfer market has developed. But I can pretty much agree with what baseballlover312 said there. That's why I also voted for a net tax.
I hear the issues with Swaps, sort of got my head around the concerns (#PTproblems am i right? ). But then it's not Net vs Gross, it's Tax vs No Tax, as either Net or Gross still incentivizes Swaps over Cash deals. Plus i firmly believe that Net is easier to manipulate than Gross by finding a willing transfer partner and over/underpaying to bring your net to balance.
So, why don't we remove Tax entirely? If there are concerns around Training causing inflation (I still believe Training should be separate from any inflation discussion) then increase Training restrictions. If the concern is cash flow being too one-directional and pooling in a handful of big teams, then make more ways to spend money or make more viable ways to spend money.
Increased Wild Card costs, introducing some way to have Wild Cards for PT teams and CT teams. Scalable training across the divisions. Different training costs for Primary, Secondary and Tertiary stats. Other ideas i'm sure are out there.
Get something in place that can replace Tax, then there's no inherent benefit to Swap vs Cash, beyond personal preference/situation, nor does it encourage the clearly massive level of meta-gaming going on to avoid Tax. Based on everyone's inputs so far, Tax seems to not be working for anyone.
TheManxMissile wrote:
Plus i firmly believe that Net is easier to manipulate than Gross by finding a willing transfer partner and over/underpaying to bring your net to balance.
Can you explain this? I dont get the statement. Why would i want someone to underpay me to bring my net to balance? Avoiding taxes is never my goal but an important path to a goal (like strengthening the squad or collecting cash for training)
I second knockout. Can you maybe make an example how someone could gain a financial advantage by gaming the net tax? Maybe I’m missing something.
At least we agree that with the current gross tax that is possible. In my opinion the net tax would close that door which is a main reason why I’m in favor of the change.
I understand your points for removing the tax completely and am not opposed to most of your ideas. But wouldn’t you say as long as we have a transfer tax, the tax system that can be manipulated the least would be preferable.
Bikex wrote:
I understand your points for removing the tax completely and am not opposed to most of your ideas. But wouldn’t you say as long as we have a transfer tax, the tax system that can be manipulated the least would be preferable.
No, i'd say lets get rid of the tax system! We don't have to have tax at all, we can change that.
We have managers saying it's broken, saying they specifically work in ways to avoid it.
Net or Gross managers will still try to collude and work around paying any tax. Net or Gross, Swaps are still beneficial. Net or Gross, there is an advantage to being a rider rich team, putting CT at an even further disadvantage in negotiations compared to PCT compared to PT. Net or Gross, money will flow upwards because CT teams cannot fully engage with training as an option to build a team.
Honestly Net or Gross, I don't care. I think it's a debate that misses the basic issue. Both systems have major flaws, inherent unfairness, and provide huge incentive to meta-game around the system in a way that's not fun. It's way too much time and debate on something that primarily affects PT teams, whilst the issues affecting the other half of the game go undiscussed and unchanged. Yeah, i've done a lot of time in CT and low PCT and i've got to be in the high PCT and PT - those off-seasons where you have lots of cash are the most fun because you can engage with so many different aspects. I just want all managers to have more to do, more ways to engage with the game.
I think, based on points raised here, the easiest way to start that would be to remove tax entirely. Net or Gross, marginal affects on what PT managers might do, zero impact on the CT - apart from as stated, making it harder to buy riders because tax cash just gets thrown away.
I'm still not convinced that it is possible to meta-game around the net tax like you say. I can't think of a way how it'd be possible to structure deals differently and end up with the same riders but more cash. Something that is possible with the current tax system. Feel free to prove me wrong with an example!
And I think only on first look all of this only matters for PT teams, as they are the ones paying most of the tax. In the end it affects everyone if teams mainly selling riders get so heavily incentivized into one type of deal. I'd argue weaker teams would profit the most from a change.
The current system won both polls by a narrow margin, so we will stick with the tax on gross at least for a few seasons. Anyone arguing for net tax or complaining that there are only swap deals in transfers will be shot.
Unfortunate, but I guess people will tend to favor what they're used to, which is something I'm sympathetic to too I guess. Hope the market works itself out anyway.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
Can we at least get an itemized receipt of what the MGUCI spends the tax income on? My team can't train properly because of the potholes near our HQ and i'd expect this to be fixed by next season! (My new excuse for not being competitive)
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As a serious response: eh. Was always going to be close, and i bet there was a vote split between top end managers and low end managers. Missed opportunity to really consider if Tax is what we actually want/need and how we could improve the game systems at a wider level. Everyone knows what's up and can plan accordingly.
The current system won both polls by a narrow margin, so we will stick with the tax on gross at least for a few seasons. Anyone arguing for net tax or complaining that there are only swap deals in transfers will be shot.
Can I continue to argue for no tax at all without fear of consequences?
). But then it's not Net vs Gross, it's Tax vs No Tax, as either Net or Gross still incentivizes Swaps over Cash deals. Plus i firmly believe that Net is easier to manipulate than Gross by finding a willing transfer partner and over/underpaying to bring your net to balance.
