TheManxMissile wrote: TT (Time Trial) - The fact that it is not linked to FL is just odd to me. Never seen a great time trialist who cannot pull hard at the head of a race (not that tt=fl). Again though it does work very well and is realistic
timetrialing is a combination of power output on the flat, a riders position on the timetrial bike and his technique on that tt bike. THey should link the TT stat to the rider's position plus the technique and combine it with the flat for TT's. A rider like Martin or Cancellara should have a high stat in both. A rider like. Valverde should have a high TT stat aswell cause he has probably the best TT technique of anybdoy in the peloton. His flat should be average then.
PRL (Prologue) - Again good, but what defines a prologue needs to be clearer. For example Cavendish is brilliant over 3k, but not great over 10k. Martin is not great over 3k, but a beast over 10k. TT and PRL should be linked in a similar way to the MO/HL ratio to make things more realistic. Also there should be something specific to TTT, because guys like Cav's and Eisel are great to have, but can't get good TT stats.
It is
On Prologue and Time trial, most times it's a mix of both. That was confirmed by someone working with the game iirc. According to the testing Daniano did in PCM10, the 'weight' of each stat according to lenght of the TT is approx.:
5km = 100% Prologue
10km = 80% Prologue & 20% TT
15km = 60% Prologue & 40% TT
20km = 40% Prologue & 60% TT
25km = 20% Prologue & 80% TT
30+km = 100% TT
admirschleck wrote:
Well,i'm sure if they sprint 1km Andre will beat him,Nacer maybe. But when it comes to last 200 meters,he is just unbeatable. That's what i think,you will may defend him according to your nick and nationality (Jesleyh2 ), but that's my opinion.
Greipel is a hard man who does go long yes, and would match Mark.
Nacer! Nope, dude just gets sucked along to the line every time.
Imagine something like: Sprint(SP), Acceleration(ACC), New Stat(NS)
Sagan only 77 for new stat (which is real acceleration, if I get it right?), I'd say Sagan is one of the most explosive. He doesn't weight much and can accelerate quite fast, no? Could be I'm mistaken.
Ian Butler wrote:
Sagan only 77 for new stat (which is real acceleration, if I get it right?), I'd say Sagan is one of the most explosive. He doesn't weight much and can accelerate quite fast, no? Could be I'm mistaken.
No Acceleration is ability to go from 0-100 (or whatever). New Stat would be the ability to sustain a sprint (kind of what ACC does now). Its a hard one to pick out due to the nature of sprints.
Sagan is tricky because of his all-round nature. Obviously he is fast and accelerates very well. But i can't remember him really taking a sprint out from distance. Of course he has great ability to go deep as a puncher/classics rider though.
Spilak23 wrote:
Kittel should have most in that new stat then. If it is what I think it it, the abiltiy to hold on the sprint for a long period
Yeah thats how the new one would work. Admittedly i don't watch Kittel a lot so those are just rough guesses.
But you see who it would work. 1 stat for speed, 1 stat for acceleration up to that speed, and 1 stat for ability to maintain that speed.
Do they need to come up with a new stat to model the current effect of the Acceleration attribute? Or could they do a bit of rethinking and do something like make the Fighter attribute more relevant to players. Resistance could be the new 'old Acceleration' and Fighter could become the new Resistance, for example.
Many fan-favourite or great cyclists in life who people may label 'Fighters' seemingly have an iron determination and\or ability to dig deep and somehow keep on going. To resist is to fight, and the good cyclists with a high Fighter stat like Voeckler usually have decent Resistance too in PCM12.
We do not need a visible attribute to determine how likely someone is to get in to the breakaway when it affects just the AI do we? Cyanide could just make a hidden attribute for it. Meanwhile, Resistance could then mean how long a cyclist, like a sprinter, can hold their effort in the red zone.
Edited by Malkael on 14-05-2013 13:01
admirschleck wrote:
Well,i'm sure if they sprint 1km Andre will beat him,Nacer maybe. But when it comes to last 200 meters,he is just unbeatable. That's what i think,you will may defend him according to your nick and nationality (Jesleyh2 ), but that's my opinion.
Sigh.
It's just normal that you cheer for your own country. Some people just have that a bit heavily, like me
And you can't help being a bit biased in discussions sometimes, and again, some guys have that more than others.
But honestly, when I help with statting at DBs, I'm really not that biased.
Example: I put Kelderman's stats down in the XXX-DB, compared to what BikeX gave them. Can you guys actually believe that I did that?!
But right, back on topic now.
What you say sound good, TheManxmissile!
There's a lot of good points being raised here, so I'll throw some in with some requests.
Somebody mentioned a dirt stat, but surely that comes under cobbles and is only really needed for one race the Strade Bianchi, so it would be a waste of a stat.
I think most of the stats are fairly accurate but I think ManxMissile mentioned about the problems with mountain stats and the different types of riders in that terrain. I've only done mountain stages in week long tours at the moment and found just sticking Wiggins on a high level and then using effort when needed dropped his rivals and he powered away. I then found using somebody like Rodriguez needed a different approach and that was to put in an attack just to drop his opponents but equally effective, so from that perspective I found it realistic, but I don't know how this would be over a major tour.
The resistence stat is power and how long the rider can go at that level right?
Fighter I think is one of the best as it's a way for riders like Chavanel and Voeckler to be realistic.
Anyway some questions as some of you seem really up to scratch with your sprinters. When is the best time to actually sprint? Is it 2km or 1KM from the finish, or should you wait for another rival to start first? Also I know uphill sprints are going to be different to flat ones. Also when it comes to sprinting in a small breakway group do the same rules as normal sprints apply in terms of distance? At the moment I win sprints, but that is because I usually have a good rider rather than planning it out really well.
Also I'm looking to improve Zdenek Stybar any ideas of what he should be as he rode a great and unexpected Paris-Roubaix before being knocked off his bike. I already have the latest patch but that was done before the Roubaix race.
When riding a cobbled classic and when the race hots up and splits, what level do you guys set your main riders at? Is it kept at 70 or upped to 80 etc?
This might be going slightly off topic, but I'm sure you guys have the answers.Edited by Tafiolmo on 14-05-2013 17:47
Resistance: Yellow bar (166-185BPM or 70-80 effort). So yes its prolonged power output. But it doesn't make massive amounts of difference between the top riders like Wiggins and Rodriguez, and the best method for all climbers is just to put them on dot.
Depends on the finish for sprinting, of course. Uphill, leave it as late as possible. Downhill about 500-750m earlier. I wait as long as possible to have the speed on the line, so around 800-1000m (occasionally pushing 1.2-1.3km if some others have got a bit of a lead). Never worry about the other riders, it won't make a difference to how your rider goes.
In a break always react to the other riders, as its usually harder to get across a gap. But as usual waiting until late on is best.
There are lots of different ways to work the sprint, its just finding the one that works. Also things change depending on where the lead-outs are, whether you have a lead-out or are following another teams one etc.
There is a stats update available. It can be found in the Stat Discussion (i don't have a direct link right now), which i post Classics
Depends on the race again, so whatever suits the situation. 70 is better than 80 as it won't run down their energy as fast, moving it up if you start to fall back.
Resistance is how long you can keep your yellow bar filled.
Fighter doesn't work like you might think it work, it only defines(for the AI) how often riders place a late attack. (Early break does now count)
The best time to sprint varies(ACC skill defines that actually). In CT, it's the best to sprint from about 800m. At WT level, I usually sprint at about 1200m. I try to get my red bar empty just after the finish line(so it should be filled a little bit when arriving at the finish)
Sometimes I wait until rivals sprint, but that's only advisable when you have the strongest sprinter ofc. Making a train has more chance of succeding than wheelsucking, but only if you have a strong leadout men for your sprinter.
What I do most of the time:
- 3km 3rd to last man is dropped from the train. Second leadout takes over.
- 1,6-2,2km(depends on what other riders do, how strong your leadout is, whether the sprint is uphill, downhill or flat, with downhill sprint being from far out ofc ), second leadout starts the sprint
- About 200m later, leadout starts the sprint.
- 800-1200m - Sprinter is released. Now cheer for him as hard as you can! ()
Sprinting at the break has the same rules yeah, although tiredness can come into play. Wheelsucking is the best idea, try to wheelsuck the best sprinter(unless the guy is like 10 SP better, than it might be better to find someone with like 5SP better than your guy)
Do you mean maintain position in the cobbled classics?
When it gets tough, I tend to use the dot(3rd button on the action bar). If you want to get away at the cobbles, you have to put dot on 55. Never ever put dot on the cobbles around 70, your cobbler will die
But for maintaining position, it doesn't really matter, 80 is fine, as long as the number doesn't keep blinking red(which means that the level isn't enough for maintaining position).
Hope that helps!
Edit: Meh, TMM was faster(Yes, I actually spent 10 minutes on typing this )
Edited by Jesleyh on 14-05-2013 18:08
Lots of useful stuff here and have decided to put Stybar on 77 cobbles and upped him to 76 flat, don't like to tweak too much. I've noticed a few people are dropping Gilbert's hill stat which is probably a good idea and he looked laboured this year in the Ardennes classics.
I suppose my big problem in races is that I panic, when I see what could be a potential winning breakaway going clear. I feel that I have to chase it to get in it and if I leave it too long to bridge the gap, I notice my main rider can be riding in 'no man's land' between the breakway and the main group and using up loads of energy, also if I take my eye off certain riders whilst looking at others, they can lose their position. I also kind of panic in the sprints, I have no problem with the lead out train and often win with that, but I panic when I see people starting to sprint from like 2km's out. Anyway will try and use some of the tips which have been mentioned. Riding the Gent Wevelegem today with Cannondale, so with Sagan I'm expecting to win or at least be in the top 3.
I keep seeing this dot being mentioned, I guess I must be not using this as by default I just keep my riders usually on 70 and on maintain position. Need to look for this.
I think the key question we should ask ourselves when looking at the stats system design is: "What defines a rider's capabilities and capacities in real life?"
Aquarius probably knows a ton about this. I've seen him talk about W/kg, aerobatic strength, VO2max and everything so he probably knows what defines a strong rider.
Then there is of course the various techniques: TT techniques like aerodynamics and applying equal power throughout, as well as cobbled techniques. Then there is knowledge of the road which can impact the course of a race in real life by lots: how to steer into certain corners, what parts of the road to ride on, etc. Then there are properties from real life that we have no numbers about but from which we can see the effects, like recuperation and endurance.
I think the stats system should be designed so that matches/mirrors these real life things as good as possible.
), but that's my opinion.
