|
The importance of attributes for specific type of riders
|
| shin0da_13 |
Posted on 25-03-2013 19:16
|
Free Agent
Posts: 141
Joined: 21-05-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Jesleyh wrote:
shin0da_13 wrote:
I've run a test in PCM 10 to test the effect of acceleration in a sprint. Same attributes for riders except one had 85 acc and one had 50. There wasn't any gap between them at the finish. I doubt they have changed this.
Riders with an higher acceleration don't sprint faster than riders with a low acceleration, that's right, but we're not saying that.
They can sprint longer though, because their red bar won't go empty as fast as riders with a low acceleration. So for example, riders with ACC 85 can sprint for 1,6km, while riders with ACC 50 can do that for 700m...
Well they both sprinted from 3k out and reached the finish line at the same time. |
| |
|
|
| Jesleyh |
Posted on 25-03-2013 19:16
|
World Champion
Posts: 14744
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
shin0da_13 wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
shin0da_13 wrote:
I've run a test in PCM 10 to test the effect of acceleration in a sprint. Same attributes for riders except one had 85 acc and one had 50. There wasn't any gap between them at the finish. I doubt they have changed this.
Riders with an higher acceleration don't sprint faster than riders with a low acceleration, that's right, but we're not saying that.
They can sprint longer though, because their red bar won't go empty as fast as riders with a low acceleration. So for example, riders with ACC 85 can sprint for 1,6km, while riders with ACC 50 can do that for 700m...
Well they both sprinted from 3k out and reached the finish line at the same time.
Well, that's changed now, for sure...
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
|
| |
|
|
| LLDS |
Posted on 25-03-2013 19:25
|
Domestique
Posts: 699
Joined: 10-02-2013
PCM$: 400.00
|
Jesleyh wrote:
shin0da_13 wrote:
I've run a test in PCM 10 to test the effect of acceleration in a sprint. Same attributes for riders except one had 85 acc and one had 50. There wasn't any gap between them at the finish. I doubt they have changed this.
Riders with an higher acceleration don't sprint faster than riders with a low acceleration, that's right, but we're not saying that.
They can sprint longer though, because their red bar won't go empty as fast as riders with a low acceleration. So for example, riders with ACC 85 can sprint for 1,6km, while riders with ACC 50 can do that for 700m...
Yes, that's how I know it works also.
So a higher acceleration means a longer sprinter, not a faster. But it is useful  . |
| |
|
|
| dren |
Posted on 25-03-2013 19:31
|
Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 13-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
LLDS wrote:
dren wrote:
acceleration is never a very important stat, even with 85 ACC vs 50 ACC gives a small amount of advantage in red bar, and comparing sprinters that both will have similar acceleration will be nowhere near as important as flat, hill also can save a bit green bar and be more important than acceleration in the end
flat doesnt not have a effect in TT's
I think that the small advantage of red bar can be important in sprint. For example, sprinting from far, so the other riders can not resist until the end.
1 point in SPR will be better than 10 in ACC, so its not comparable in importance. ACC can be a difference between lose and win? yes but if a sprinter have low ACC its not a big problem. |
| |
|
|
| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 25-03-2013 19:59
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8425
Joined: 30-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
LLDS wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
It seems that the TT stat also replaces the flat stat in TTs.
So Flat isn't important for TTs, at least that's what I heard.
Hmmm, I don't know what to say. I saw both opinions.
Flat doesn't matter in TTs, at least from what I've tested. It's easy to test, just create two equal riders where the only thing that changes is the flat stat, make sure they run the entire TT with the same (manual) effort and then compare times. Of course make sure that there's no country bonus, daily form disabled, etc.
shin0da_13 wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
shin0da_13 wrote:
I've run a test in PCM 10 to test the effect of acceleration in a sprint. Same attributes for riders except one had 85 acc and one had 50. There wasn't any gap between them at the finish. I doubt they have changed this.
Riders with an higher acceleration don't sprint faster than riders with a low acceleration, that's right, but we're not saying that.
They can sprint longer though, because their red bar won't go empty as fast as riders with a low acceleration. So for example, riders with ACC 85 can sprint for 1,6km, while riders with ACC 50 can do that for 700m...
Well they both sprinted from 3k out and reached the finish line at the same time.
Sobrano's test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPxdK8...mp;t=2m55s
It's in PCM11, but as he says, it's been the same since PCM07.
Here's another acceleration test I did some time ago, with pictures rather than video though:
dren wrote:
1 point in SPR will be better than 10 in ACC, so its not comparable in importance. ACC can be a difference between lose and win? yes but if a sprinter have low ACC its not a big problem.
While I haven't done any actual testing about this, I hardly think 10 ACC < 1 SPR. As the stat guide attached on page 1 says: "For sprinters, it's pretty much the same as sprinting". Besides, I remember reading more than once that the acceleration stat is as important as the sprint stat. Well, another thing that isn't hard to test (in proper conditions of course).
|
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 08-12-2025 17:34
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| dren |
Posted on 25-03-2013 20:44
|
Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 13-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
maybe i exagerated a bit, its difficult to say if its better 10 ACC<1 SPR, can be better or can be worse, its not that easy to test bescause it depends of the amount of yellow bar before the sprint.
the more yellow bar both riders have the more will favour the acceleration rider, because a lower yellow bar will bottleneck the use of red bar and then the 1 SPR will count more
but anyway ACC counts nowhere near as SPR |
| |
|
|
| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 25-03-2013 21:20
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8425
Joined: 30-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
dren wrote:
maybe i exagerated a bit, its difficult to say if its better 10 ACC<1 SPR, can be better or can be worse, its not that easy to test bescause it depends of the amount of yellow bar before the sprint.
the more yellow bar both riders have the more will favour the acceleration rider, because a lower yellow bar will bottleneck the use of red bar and then the 1 SPR will count more
but anyway ACC counts nowhere near as SPR
That's how unproper test would be done. In fact just playing a stage and seeing who among different riders with different ACC will be better in the sprint is not even testing.
Proper testing = both riders with all the same stats other than ACC, riding alone on dot/same effort the entire stage (away from the peloton), without country bonus, daily form, etc.
Edited by lluuiiggii on 25-03-2013 21:21
|
| |
|
|
| dren |
Posted on 25-03-2013 21:38
|
Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 13-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
lluuiiggii wrote:
dren wrote:
maybe i exagerated a bit, its difficult to say if its better 10 ACC<1 SPR, can be better or can be worse, its not that easy to test bescause it depends of the amount of yellow bar before the sprint.
the more yellow bar both riders have the more will favour the acceleration rider, because a lower yellow bar will bottleneck the use of red bar and then the 1 SPR will count more
but anyway ACC counts nowhere near as SPR
That's how unproper test would be done. In fact just playing a stage and seeing who among different riders with different ACC will be better in the sprint is not even testing.
Proper testing = both riders with all the same stats other than ACC, riding alone on dot/same effort the entire stage (away from the peloton), without country bonus, daily form, etc.
i never said that i played a stage with the peloton for test it, i used 2 equal riders both started the sprint side by side in equal conditions, both were on dot spending the same yellow bar before the sprint, one with 1 more sprint and other with 10 acc, it is fair to spend some yellow because in a normal sprint stage you will need to spend some yellow before the sprint, just saying that the winner it depends on how much yellow you spend before the sprint, if both are full yellow the 10 acceleration one will be the winner but if they are 30% yellow the 1 sprint will be the winner, so its not easy to tell what is better but the ratio of importance is similar to 1 sprint-10 acceleration, maybe a little less o a little more
Edited by dren on 25-03-2013 21:43
|
| |
|
|
| Kentaurus |
Posted on 26-03-2013 05:05
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3991
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
dren wrote:
i never said that i played a stage with the peloton for test it, i used 2 equal riders both started the sprint side by side in equal conditions, both were on dot spending the same yellow bar before the sprint, one with 1 more sprint and other with 10 acc, it is fair to spend some yellow because in a normal sprint stage you will need to spend some yellow before the sprint, just saying that the winner it depends on how much yellow you spend before the sprint, if both are full yellow the 10 acceleration one will be the winner but if they are 30% yellow the 1 sprint will be the winner, so its not easy to tell what is better but the ratio of importance is similar to 1 sprint-10 acceleration, maybe a little less o a little more
There are also many more factors at play during a normal race, how far out does the sprint start? Sometimes if your following a rider he may not start until .6km to go which would favor the +1 sprint, a longer distance would favor the +10 acc. As a whole I would rather the +10 acceleration but situations could change things.
AZTECA - NBCSN  |
| |
|
|
| dren |
Posted on 26-03-2013 10:14
|
Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 13-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Kentaurus wrote:
dren wrote:
i never said that i played a stage with the peloton for test it, i used 2 equal riders both started the sprint side by side in equal conditions, both were on dot spending the same yellow bar before the sprint, one with 1 more sprint and other with 10 acc, it is fair to spend some yellow because in a normal sprint stage you will need to spend some yellow before the sprint, just saying that the winner it depends on how much yellow you spend before the sprint, if both are full yellow the 10 acceleration one will be the winner but if they are 30% yellow the 1 sprint will be the winner, so its not easy to tell what is better but the ratio of importance is similar to 1 sprint-10 acceleration, maybe a little less o a little more
There are also many more factors at play during a normal race, how far out does the sprint start? Sometimes if your following a rider he may not start until .6km to go which would favor the +1 sprint, a longer distance would favor the +10 acc. As a whole I would rather the +10 acceleration but situations could change things.
i tested 3 spr vs 30 acc too
i did two different type of test, one side by side and start sprint with 3km to go, this was not very realistic and there was some wheelsucking involved, but not too much
and the other test with equal leadout for both, but it was not perfect anyway, none of the test was perfect enough to say what is better but its really close.
in race conditions i would prefer the sprint because if you dont spend all the red bar then the full advantage is for the sprint.
but my point its not say how much important its exactly the acceleration because you can do the same with any combination of stats, there is too much possible combinations of stats a rider can have. my point is simply that acceleration is always a secondary stat |
| |
|
|
| CosmicOsmo |
Posted on 29-03-2013 20:35
|
Under 23
Posts: 90
Joined: 17-04-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
@DREN:
there is a standard set of control one needs to take into account when testing for such things. now while me and luigi rarely agree on the topic, we both conduct our tests very similarly. you need to isolate the riders from any and all external factors to make the test work.
aside from that i also use different stat ratios than luigi. he tends to min/max his riders while i feel the testing isnt accurate unless one uses a base line of around 70, as opposed to 50.
either way we all have found that flat does not influence TT at all. mountain stat of course will influence a hilly TT though. STA and RES are both connected to the Green and Yellow Bars, and although i maintain that ACC does influence actual acceleration (based on my observation of displayed KPH) most say it does not and only influences the Red bar. I for one havent noticed this but i cant ignore 3 other peoples testing
top 10 of all time in no particular order, not including the cannibal cause hes automatically #1:
-Gemininani -Nencini -Anquetil -Coppi
-Kelly -Hinault -Zabel -Bettini -Rebellin -Magni
..and honorable mention to Tom Simpson whos career was cut short.
Top 5 noobs most likely to tear it up this season:
-Phinney -Moser -TJ -Guardini -DURBO!
|
| |
|
|
| dren |
Posted on 29-03-2013 21:55
|
Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 13-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
CosmicOsmo wrote:
@DREN:
there is a standard set of control one needs to take into account when testing for such things. now while me and luigi rarely agree on the topic, we both conduct our tests very similarly. you need to isolate the riders from any and all external factors to make the test work.
aside from that i also use different stat ratios than luigi. he tends to min/max his riders while i feel the testing isnt accurate unless one uses a base line of around 70, as opposed to 50.
either way we all have found that flat does not influence TT at all. mountain stat of course will influence a hilly TT though. STA and RES are both connected to the Green and Yellow Bars, and although i maintain that ACC does influence actual acceleration (based on my observation of displayed KPH) most say it does not and only influences the Red bar. I for one havent noticed this but i cant ignore 3 other peoples testing
i know how to do the tests but in a 3km effort the differences will be very difficult to see, the time gaps are not accurate enough for get a conclusion so this test cant be done with both riders alone
in my tests the only factor was a bit of wheelsucking and the ACC rider was the one that got more because he was a bit behind for most of the sprint because the higher sprint start faster, so more in my favour
Edited by dren on 29-03-2013 22:32
|
| |
|
|
| SweatyViking |
Posted on 29-03-2013 22:25
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 919
Joined: 19-06-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Jesleyh wrote:
It seems that the TT stat also replaces the flat stat in TTs.
So Flat isn't important for TTs, at least that's what I heard.
I think that TT might have some impact on riding alone on the flats. I have a generated rider with 70 FL and 80 TT who is a beast when it comes to attacking and keeping a distance to the pack on the flats.. |
| |
|
|
| Jesleyh |
Posted on 29-03-2013 22:30
|
World Champion
Posts: 14744
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
SweatyViking wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
It seems that the TT stat also replaces the flat stat in TTs.
So Flat isn't important for TTs, at least that's what I heard.
I think that TT might have some impact on riding alone on the flats. I have a generated rider with 70 FL and 80 TT who is a beast when it comes to attacking and keeping a distance to the pack on the flats..
Yeah, I vaguely remember reading that somewhere. I wasn't saying that that isn't true btw 
It could be true. Although it would be great if someone wants to test it
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
|
| |
|
|
| dren |
Posted on 29-03-2013 22:36
|
Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 13-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
i did some time ago that test of TT riding alone in the flat and there was no difference
i did it because there was some advice in the game that sound like that |
| |
|
|
| NTTHRASH |
Posted on 29-03-2013 23:12
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3111
Joined: 09-09-2012
PCM$: 3840.00
|
CosmicOsmo wrote:
I feel the testing isnt accurate unless one uses a base line of around 70, as opposed to 50.
Or you can go on Lachi's Editor, and set the stats to 99 and 1, it gives a huge difference to make observations easier.
"America. Show a nipple on television and the whole country goes ape-shit." -DubbelDekker
|
| |
|
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 30-03-2013 07:26
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21379
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
Stats can't be 1 and 99, they vary between 55 and 85. If you set them to 1 in an editor, they will be 55 ingame. |
| |
|
|
| Mordekaiser |
Posted on 30-03-2013 08:18
|
Stagiare
Posts: 199
Joined: 17-06-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Actually |I have once seen a stat on a DB (2000 I think it was) that was 46 :S |
| |
|
|
| Jesleyh |
Posted on 30-03-2013 08:20
|
World Champion
Posts: 14744
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Mordekaiser wrote:
Actually |I have once seen a stat on a DB (2000 I think it was) that was 46 :S
Yes, it's possible, but it will be equally strong to 50.
So there's no difference to for example stat 7 and 50
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
|
| |
|
|
| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 30-03-2013 08:47
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 9885
Joined: 01-05-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Ian Butler wrote:
Stats can't be 1 and 99, they vary between 55 and 85. If you set them to 1 in an editor, they will be 55 ingame.
50 is the minimum, not 55
|
| |
|
