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PCM.daily DB Stats discussion
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:07
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Why would his recovery be so low? I know he fell apart this tour (after becoming a defacto leader), but in last years tour he was just as strong late as he was early. 6th stage 18 (Alpe d'Huez) and 5th stage 20 (Le Semnoz).
I'm not saying it needs to be great, but certainly he deserves more than a 64.
Edited by Kentaurus on 25-07-2014 21:07
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| Dusen |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:11
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Kentaurus wrote:
Why would his recovery be so low? I know he fell apart this tour (after becoming a defacto leader), but in last years tour he was just as strong late as he was early. 6th stage 18 (Alpe d'Huez) and 5th stage 20 (Le Semnoz).
I'm not saying it needs to be great, but certainly he deserves more than a 64.
Well he does have at least that 1 bad day in pretty much all the grand tours he have riden regardless of being captain or helper.
So i guess that could be a fair reason to cut his RES a bit, maybe not that much, but a little bit lower than other GC riders. |
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| lakebeach |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:12
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kida wrote:
lakebeach wrote:
kida wrote:
He's ridden 6 GT's before this TdF started. He finished 7th in the 2010 Giro and IMO that was helped by being in the break. He finished 19th last year but aside from that he's finished 81,72,89,68 in GT's. I'll give you his positions in week long stage races are better. So maybe you're right when you say 79MO but a low(ish) REC stat.
You can't decide his mountain stat only looking at his results as a team mate. He has only had two opportunities riding for himself in GT's, Giro 2010 and Tour 2014. He has served as a team mate in the rest of the grand tours he's ridden.
Ok let me see if I'm on the same page as you:
You can't use results to come up with stats unless the results were gained when the rider was riding for himself and not as a team mate.
I mean you want to give Porte an 80 for climbing because he finished 7th when he was riding for himself(he's riding for himself at the moment and he's getting beaten by Ben Gastauer, who's working for other riders). So F/E Gadret, Mollema, Gesink should have a higher MO stat because they've finished higher than Porte in a GT whilst riding as leaders.
Am I on the right page?
Well, my only point is that it's important to concider what he has actually done in the races, and to not only look at the results.
"It's very hard to work with other guys because nobody wants to work with me so it's better to drop everybody." - Peter Sagan |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:13
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Because he can never put together a string of good stages. For every few he does well, he completely boinks in a bunch of others, not just 1 or 2. This Tour he has done nothing. He boinked, took days recovering, and then still never attacked or featured again.
I say 64 rec represents him because in all honesty, a few recovery points here or there among the contenders means absolutely nothing in game. If you want it to actually have an impact, that's how low you have to go.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| kida |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:17
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Kentaurus wrote:
Why would his recovery be so low? I know he fell apart this tour (after becoming a defacto leader), but in last years tour he was just as strong late as he was early. 6th stage 18 (Alpe d'Huez) and 5th stage 20 (Le Semnoz).
I'm not saying it needs to be great, but certainly he deserves more than a 64.
He also blew up big time on stage 9 of last years tour and lost 18 minutes. Which seems the norm for Porte during a GT. |
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| admirschleck |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:19
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I agree with Kent. Can't see the strong reason to be so harsh on Porte and his REC stat. He was sick this year and he clearly took a "rest" day last year on the tour (on the stage when he lost shitload of time), but he always was there with Froome in 2nd and 3rd week, where only few guys could follow this duo. We don't have inconsistency stat in PCM, and it definitely isn't something that should be compensated by a bad recovery stat.
However, I am not saying he deserves a top recovery stat. Some low 70's should be fine, I think.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:22
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admirschleck wrote:
I agree with Kent. Can't see the strong reason to be so harsh on Porte and his REC stat. He was sick this year and he clearly took a "rest" day last year on the tour (on the stage when he lost shitload of time), but he always was there with Froome in 2nd and 3rd week, where only few guys could follow this duo. We don't have inconsistency stat in PCM, and it definitely isn't something that should be compensated by a bad recovery stat.
However, I am not saying he deserves a top recovery stat. Some low 70's should be fine, I think.
No. that just doesn't work. Recovery is not effected by only small gaps. I rode the Giro with Dan martin and got 3rd. He has 70 recovery, and still he barely dropped off. I've run other tests with him as AI. There is little decrease in performance in 3rd week. he lost like 2 GC spots.
If you want the stat to mean something, you actually have to treat it as it's own stat, rather than a backup stat to mtn. If you do that, Porte is in the 60s.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| kida |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:34
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admirschleck wrote:
I agree with Kent. Can't see the strong reason to be so harsh on Porte and his REC stat. He was sick this year and he clearly took a "rest" day last year on the tour (on the stage when he lost shitload of time), but he always was there with Froome in 2nd and 3rd week, where only few guys could follow this duo. We don't have inconsistency stat in PCM, and it definitely isn't something that should be compensated by a bad recovery stat.
However, I am not saying he deserves a top recovery stat. Some low 70's should be fine, I think.
Regarding Porte and being ill, didn't Mollema say he was ill too?
From a Porte/Sky fan on another forum
"The illness is a smokescreen by Sky. When he got shelled the rider himself said he wasn't coping with the heat well, no mention of illness. The DS said illness a couple of days later". |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:35
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Classics Specialist
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From my playing so far, recovery is far more important for your support riders than your GC rider. How fair that is compared to the real world is questionable, but it is how this game is playing for me so far.
As a note, I would have no problem with Porte being ~68, I just feel 64 is too low.
Edited by Kentaurus on 25-07-2014 21:36
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 11-09-2026 18:01
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| Naskela |
Posted on 25-07-2014 21:40
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admirschleck wrote:
I agree with Kent. Can't see the strong reason to be so harsh on Porte and his REC stat. He was sick this year and he clearly took a "rest" day last year on the tour (on the stage when he lost shitload of time), but he always was there with Froome in 2nd and 3rd week, where only few guys could follow this duo. We don't have inconsistency stat in PCM, and it definitely isn't something that should be compensated by a bad recovery stat.
However, I am not saying he deserves a top recovery stat. Some low 70's should be fine, I think.
He took a rest day? Froome were attacked trough the whole day there is no way he would let him go resting, Porte was driving like crazy to get back to the leader group i remember it like yesterday. But i don't support that low rec if his mountain stat is 78 probably raise it a bit.
Edited by Naskela on 25-07-2014 21:50
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| Dancycling |
Posted on 25-07-2014 23:56
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I think you should wait before lowering Porte and see what happens in the TT. If we don't see him doing well there it will be evident that he is not at his best in terms of fitness, so he shouldn't be lowered. |
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| madzdaman |
Posted on 26-07-2014 00:01
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Dancycling wrote:
I think you should wait before lowering Porte and see what happens in the TT. If we don't see him doing well there it will be evident that he is not at his best in terms of fitness, so he shouldn't be lowered.
so if he does well he should be lowered? |
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| Dancycling |
Posted on 26-07-2014 00:03
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Yes. As odd as that sounds |
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| zeus1001 |
Posted on 26-07-2014 00:06
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Guys!!! Porte is a fantastic teamrider specially in the mountains.... You have to keep in mind, that he got injured at least two times, this year... In the last Year, on the Tour, he destroyed most of Froome's competition by himself... I think he sould have a good rec and mountains stats as well...
Edited by zeus1001 on 26-07-2014 00:08
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| madzdaman |
Posted on 26-07-2014 00:09
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i think he'd still be a decent helper with say 77 mon and 70 rec, without being a leader. may not be as accurate but if we're being accurate, he has been very bad this season, so should be even lower. He may become better next year, but we can change the stats accordingly. for now, he's been a disappointment for a year now. |
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| The Hobbit |
Posted on 26-07-2014 07:49
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madzdaman wrote:
i think he'd still be a decent helper with say 77 mon and 70 rec, without being a leader. may not be as accurate but if we're being accurate, he has been very bad this season, so should be even lower. He may become better next year, but we can change the stats accordingly. for now, he's been a disappointment for a year now.
I don't see how you can say he has been a disapointment when he has barely even raced. I think he is in a similar situation to Rodriguez, he came into the Tour in terrible shape, Porte looking to help Froome as best as he could, Rodriguez obviously going for the KOM.
The reason people aren't lowering Purito's stats are that he showed some early form, and that he isn't really peaking for the Tour. Porte didn't get to show any early form because he was always getting injuries or problems. His peak was obviously the Giro, which he probably would have podiumed at least, had he been there. If we ranked Porte on this season, he'd be about 72 mt, if you did on last season, he'd be 80. Neither really represents where Porte is at on his day though, which is what makes this so hard, as we can't know. |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 26-07-2014 08:33
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The Hobbit wrote:
I don't see how you can say he has been a disapointment when he has barely even raced. I think he is in a similar situation to Rodriguez, he came into the Tour in terrible shape, Porte looking to help Froome as best as he could, Rodriguez obviously going for the KOM.
The reason people aren't lowering Purito's stats are that he showed some early form, and that he isn't really peaking for the Tour. Porte didn't form because he was always getting injuries or problems. His peak was obviously the Giro, which he probably would have podiumed at least, had he been there. If we ranked Porte on this season, he'd be about 72 mt, if you did on last season, he'd be 80. Neither really represents where Porte is at on his day though, which is what makes this so hard, as we can't know.
I have to disagree with you. He hadn't had so severe injuries like Purito or Horner that caused loss of muscle mass in his legs. Also how much do you think it takes to get in top shape if you have the leg power and need to gain the endurance to compete in the Tour? |
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| jussike |
Posted on 26-07-2014 09:04
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As an Estonian I am a tad biased for setting stats of Estonians. With this season/tour in mind, what would you do with both Taaramäe and Kangert? With Kangert, I would probably wait to see todays TT result, but as for Taaramäe, he has started to show some legs after the operation he had earlier this year (+he was okay in Tour of Turkey).
As I am no expert in PCM, I would be extremely grateful if any of you could tell all the important stats for those two.
Thank you in advance, |
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| fullenglish |
Posted on 26-07-2014 09:47
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dark_x2012 wrote: Also how much do you think it takes to get in top shape if you have the leg power and need to gain the endurance to compete in the Tour?
You'd need to be in Tip top shape if you want to ride well over whole 3 weeks. Not going to happen if you have disrupted preparation in the 2-3 months before.
I'm not so sure that the illness is a necessarily a smokescreen given the wet/cold weather in the days leading up. From my own experience its very easy to pick up a bug when you're freezing/soaked/only wearing lycra for 5-6 hours. Rider's immune systems tend to be weakend due to the efforts they put in, and once you've got something that affects your breathing or ability to eat you can get in trouble quite quickly as your recovery really suffers.
Sky have also been pretty bad in the past for their riders forgetting to eat.... Happened to Kiriyenka last year when he missed the cutoff time, Froome on Alpe d'Huez. Quite possibly Porte too when he lost time in 2013.
Its always worth considering this when a rider bonks on one stage and then loses motivation/team support and his performance drops off from there on in.
Stats wise, I think a lot if riders (probably more than 1/2) should be given a dislike of wet conditions (if those favoured/disliked weather things even work?). Its not really right to be slashing stats because guys are Ill and miss their goal. Its not as if he's done an Andy Schleck. |
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| totto |
Posted on 26-07-2014 18:13
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I think if any one should be given low REC, it's Valverde... |
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