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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 17-04-2015 07:05
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World Champion
Posts: 13662
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
I agree that it would be great if cyanide could add real faces of riders with some details and make everything good but the problem is that with all those implementation only PCs with great graphics cards will be able to support the game.
It would be a surprise to see cyanide do it because they want PCM to be a management game, they don't focus that much on details.
Sorry for OT, thus the spioiler
Spoiler Wait, what? Management part of the game is close to untouched for last 5 years, while the just polish graphical part of the game and focus on these details that are not really improving the game. Meanwhile only change to managerial part was to worse, in terms of race planning and they just continue to ruin the AI and make several stats unfuctional.
PCM is hardly a manager game, even games like NBA2k or FIFA has deeper managerial experience than PCM...
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 17-04-2015 07:08
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World Champion
Posts: 13662
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
You need to calm down and I know you a fanboy of Peter Sagan but we are here to discuss about stats right ? Sagan got dropped by GVA because he lacked endurance and you would give him 81 stamina the same as kristoff but it doesn't make sense because Sagan performance this year doesn't desmonstrate high stamina. For the cobbles at 80 you got a point because at 79 it might be hard for him and struggles on cobbles but with good tactics and the fact that he got a good sprint at 78/79 and hill at 77 he might accomplish things mostly for Classics.
I am calm mate. 
Can you exactly point out what in my posts in this thread in recent time is not objective, because i tried to work with facts and results and actually called for lowering the sprint stats of Sagan, as i see his problem there, not in worse endurance or bad cobble ability.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 17-04-2015 07:09
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
I agree that it would be great if cyanide could add real faces of riders with some details and make everything good but the problem is that with all those implementation only PCs with great graphics cards will be able to support the game.
It would be a surprise to see cyanide do it because they want PCM to be a management game, they don't focus that much on details.
Sorry for OT, thus the spioiler
Spoiler Wait, what? Management part of the game is close to untouched for last 5 years, while the just polish graphical part of the game and focus on these details that are not really improving the game. Meanwhile only change to managerial part was to worse, in terms of race planning and they just continue to ruin the AI and make several stats unfuctional.
PCM is hardly a manager game, even games like NBA2k or FIFA has deeper managerial experience than PCM...
If PCM is not a manager game tell me what it is ? |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 17-04-2015 07:10
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World Champion
Posts: 13662
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
I agree that it would be great if cyanide could add real faces of riders with some details and make everything good but the problem is that with all those implementation only PCs with great graphics cards will be able to support the game.
It would be a surprise to see cyanide do it because they want PCM to be a management game, they don't focus that much on details.
Sorry for OT, thus the spioiler
Spoiler Wait, what? Management part of the game is close to untouched for last 5 years, while the just polish graphical part of the game and focus on these details that are not really improving the game. Meanwhile only change to managerial part was to worse, in terms of race planning and they just continue to ruin the AI and make several stats unfuctional.
PCM is hardly a manager game, even games like NBA2k or FIFA has deeper managerial experience than PCM...
If PCM is not a manager game tell me what it is ?
Cycling simulation game with very very bad managerial part.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 17-04-2015 07:15
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
You need to calm down and I know you a fanboy of Peter Sagan but we are here to discuss about stats right ? Sagan got dropped by GVA because he lacked endurance and you would give him 81 stamina the same as kristoff but it doesn't make sense because Sagan performance this year doesn't desmonstrate high stamina. For the cobbles at 80 you got a point because at 79 it might be hard for him and struggles on cobbles but with good tactics and the fact that he got a good sprint at 78/79 and hill at 77 he might accomplish things mostly for Classics.
I am calm mate.
Can you exactly point out what in my posts in this thread in recent time is not objective, because i tried to work with facts and results and actually called for lowering the sprint stats of Sagan, as i see his problem there, not in worse endurance or bad cobble ability.
The thing is stamina is about endurance and only those that stays fresh for the last km get good results during classics. Sagan didn't get lowered in cobble stats but in your opinion you think it should be raised to 80 but he didn't quite show how strong he was on cobbles this year. He was only following for the most part. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 17-04-2015 07:36
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
I agree that it would be great if cyanide could add real faces of riders with some details and make everything good but the problem is that with all those implementation only PCs with great graphics cards will be able to support the game.
It would be a surprise to see cyanide do it because they want PCM to be a management game, they don't focus that much on details.
Sorry for OT, thus the spioiler
Spoiler Wait, what? Management part of the game is close to untouched for last 5 years, while the just polish graphical part of the game and focus on these details that are not really improving the game. Meanwhile only change to managerial part was to worse, in terms of race planning and they just continue to ruin the AI and make several stats unfuctional.
PCM is hardly a manager game, even games like NBA2k or FIFA has deeper managerial experience than PCM...
If PCM is not a manager game tell me what it is ?
Cycling simulation game with very very bad managerial part.
I don't think we would be playing PCM if it was so bad but of course the management part isn't of the level of NBA 2K or FIFA because 2K sports and easports put a lot of money to develop good games and they got plenty of studios to work on things not like cyanide that's so small. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 17-04-2015 09:07
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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@Avin
I think it's a general consensus here that Sagan came unstuck this season in the E3 and RvV because he couldn't follow both Thomas and Stybar at the end of E3 and GVA at RvV which indicates a stamina problem. Jesley has put his stamina at 78 and I agree with that as well.
When I mentioned that I was older than most on here it had nothing to do with stats, I was just suggesting to Matt that I remember back in the 1990s that the Gent-Wevelgem was always seen as a sprinters race but was harder than most because it had heavy wind and cobbles and that most of the riders that won it were tough sprinters.
As for the game I just see it a simulation but due to budget restrictions, it lags behind other big sporting games out there. The problem is the only people that buy the game are cycling/game fanatics and the average person is probably not going to buy the game. To play the game well and understand it well, you really have to love cycling, it's not really a casual gameplayer's game.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 17-04-2015 09:08
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 17-04-2015 09:56
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World Champion
Posts: 13662
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
@Avin
I think it's a general consensus here that Sagan came unstuck this season in the E3 and RvV because he couldn't follow both Thomas and Stybar at the end of E3 and GVA at RvV which indicates a stamina problem. Jesley has put his stamina at 78 and I agree with that as well.
Strange thinking here. Sagan is dropped in stamina because he cant follow GVA in one race, RvV and GVA is what stamina in your stats, 80-81 compared to Sagan at 78? Lets now put aside he is facing the doping ban, but he was 88th at E3,69 at K-B-K,19th at San Remo. So he was also not showing his über stamina in most of the longest races bar RvV and Roubaix.
Sagan skipped Omloop and K-B-K, and E3 was his first cobbled race of the season, so you cant judhe him for races he was not in (like you right do with Boonen), or you cant judge him for mechanical problems in crucial part of the race (like you rightly do with Vanmarcke). It seems to me like while some riders are judged by certain formula, others are judged with different one, as you are expecting more of them.
Also when there are talks about Sagan just following most of the time, that is just natural development after what was happening earlier in his career. Whole forum, including me was laughing for couple of years now on Sagan because he was always like full retard crazy attacker and he lost tons of races because of that. Nobody wanted to pull for him in any attack or breakaway and that costed him a lot, but still he was usually at the front,pulling things. But now, since he tries to change that and rather follow, he is just following, which shows his inability in many eyes? That is rather silly.
I would be fully for his "classics" nerf last year, when he was pretty bad in longess and toughest races bar his Roubaix attack, but this year? He actually improved his results and positioning in these races.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 17-04-2015 09:57
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 17-04-2015 10:16
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15024
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 11500.00
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In general, I'd say Sagan isn't the wonderboy he was 2 years ago anymore. We were all saying he could win all 5 monuments, but now..
Milan - San Remo - He's not as strong as the Ciolek edition (which he should've won). The last 2 years he always met a bunch of guys who outsprint him after a long and hard race. I think he has lost a bit of speed.
Ronde Van Vlaanderen - He got over his Kwaremont nightmare, but still cracking in the end. I don't think he'll ever win this one, the race is just too hard for him, there's always a moment where he totaly breaks down.
Roubaix - He's got decent cobble skills and had bad luck this year. He's good, but again, I don't see him winning this one.
We'll talk about the others later (if he starts), but I think this season won't be all that much for Sagan. Only 1 win so far I think? He seems to have lost his punch, both the uphill acceleration that the entire peloton feared and the finish at the line. Or maybe the other sprinters just made a lot of progress, not sure about that one.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 17-04-2015 10:59
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1187
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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I think Sagan in hills is better 76, Michael Matthews now is 76 and I think is better than Sagan in hills. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 17-04-2015 13:03
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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@Avin, well you keep throwing up his high positions this season but on closer analysis this is what's revealed.
Milan-San Remo- Yes this was his best race and he finished fourth but was still beaten by Matthews who is not exactly a top rank sprinter.
Strade Bianche- Tried to bridge the gap to the leaders but cracked and blew up and eventually finished 31st and 5.13 mins down.
E3 Harelbeke- Couldn't react to first Thomas and then Stybar, cracked and blew up again before finally finishing 30th postion and 1.13 down.
Tour of Flanders- Didn't have the legs when GVA attacked, like a cracked and blown up rider. He was lucky the other riders behind weren't closer otherwise he would've finished further down.
Paris-Roubaix- Luckily he had mechanical problems so his blushes were saved here.
Does this all sound like a rider that's on form and with great stamina?
Basically this season Sagan has riden these races like a tired old man, I think we've been generous here by giving him 79 cobble and 78 stamina.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 17-04-2015 13:04
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 17-04-2015 19:03
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Let's face it Sagan isn't the guy that used to blown us away with his abilities on the bike but I wonder if it's because the lack of support from his team or if he just doesn't have the same abilities to win and he lost his instinct. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 17-04-2015 19:28
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Let's face it Sagan isn't the guy that used to blown us away with his abilities on the bike but I wonder if it's because the lack of support from his team or if he just doesn't have the same abilities to win and he lost his instinct.
Riders all go through periods of bad form and high pressure and all this leads to poor motivation. Let's face it he's in the worst team if he's feeling under pressure at Tinkoff. At Cannondale he had less pressure and more time to get results, at Tinkoff he is under immediate pressure to get results like a player or manager is at say Chelsea or Manchester City.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 17-04-2015 19:28
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 17-04-2015 19:30
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Let's face it Sagan isn't the guy that used to blown us away with his abilities on the bike but I wonder if it's because the lack of support from his team or if he just doesn't have the same abilities to win and he lost his instinct.
Riders all go through periods of bad form and high pressure and all this leads to poor motivation. Let's face it he's in the worst team if he's feeling under pressure at Tinkoff. At Cannondale he had less pressure and more time to get results, at Tinkoff he is under immediate pressure to get results like a player or manager is at say Chelsea or Manchester City.
But since last year either with cannondale or Tinkoff he doesn't get significant results |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 17-04-2015 20:02
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Let's face it Sagan isn't the guy that used to blown us away with his abilities on the bike but I wonder if it's because the lack of support from his team or if he just doesn't have the same abilities to win and he lost his instinct.
Riders all go through periods of bad form and high pressure and all this leads to poor motivation. Let's face it he's in the worst team if he's feeling under pressure at Tinkoff. At Cannondale he had less pressure and more time to get results, at Tinkoff he is under immediate pressure to get results like a player or manager is at say Chelsea or Manchester City.
But since last year either with cannondale or Tinkoff he doesn't get significant results
Well he did win the green jersey for the third time but maybe he had lost some form last year which has got worst since joining a higher profile team in Tinkoff. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 17-04-2015 20:07
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Let's face it Sagan isn't the guy that used to blown us away with his abilities on the bike but I wonder if it's because the lack of support from his team or if he just doesn't have the same abilities to win and he lost his instinct.
Riders all go through periods of bad form and high pressure and all this leads to poor motivation. Let's face it he's in the worst team if he's feeling under pressure at Tinkoff. At Cannondale he had less pressure and more time to get results, at Tinkoff he is under immediate pressure to get results like a player or manager is at say Chelsea or Manchester City.
But since last year either with cannondale or Tinkoff he doesn't get significant results
Well he did win the green jersey for the third time but maybe he had lost some form last year which has got worst since joining a higher profile team in Tinkoff.
I don't consider the green jersey to be a significant result for sagan and we all know his ability to win green jerseys but I'm sure he would trade it if he could for a monument. The green jersey is about being well placed on stages, and sagan showed last year that he didn't need a single win to bring the green jersey. It's better to get a stage win in the tour than to get the green jersey. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 17-04-2015 20:31
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
I don't consider the green jersey to be a significant result for sagan and we all know his ability to win green jerseys but I'm sure he would trade it if he could for a monument. The green jersey is about being well placed on stages, and sagan showed last year that he didn't need a single win to bring the green jersey. It's better to get a stage win in the tour than to get the green jersey.
Well you can also win the Tour de France without winning a stage as well.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 17-04-2015 20:32
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 17-04-2015 21:15
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
I don't consider the green jersey to be a significant result for sagan and we all know his ability to win green jerseys but I'm sure he would trade it if he could for a monument. The green jersey is about being well placed on stages, and sagan showed last year that he didn't need a single win to bring the green jersey. It's better to get a stage win in the tour than to get the green jersey.
Well you can also win the Tour de France without winning a stage as well.
Yes you are right but winning the green jersey and wiinning the TDF is different. Winning the TDF has more importance and it ask for a lot more work. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 18-04-2015 22:14
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Yes you are right but winning the green jersey and wiinning the TDF is different. Winning the TDF has more importance and it ask for a lot more work.
Well the green jersey is for the most consistent sprinter/best finisher over a full three weeks and so therefore the winner doesn't need to be the best sprinter. It's for a sprinter that can climb and not get eliminated and still be strong in the third week, so for a flatman it's a very hard jersey to win and holds more prestige than the polka dot jersey.
All time record is Erik Zabel with 6 wins, so Sagan is doing pretty well on 3 wins.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 18-04-2015 22:15
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 18-04-2015 22:49
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4394
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Yes you are right but winning the green jersey and wiinning the TDF is different. Winning the TDF has more importance and it ask for a lot more work.
Well the green jersey is for the most consistent sprinter/best finisher over a full three weeks and so therefore the winner doesn't need to be the best sprinter. It's for a sprinter that can climb and not get eliminated and still be strong in the third week, so for a flatman it's a very hard jersey to win and holds more prestige than the polka dot jersey.
All time record is Erik Zabel with 6 wins, so Sagan is doing pretty well on 3 wins.
Tell that the frenchies. For them, the polka-dot jersey is almost as good as the yellow one.
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