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PCM.daily DB Stats discussion
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| Shonak |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:06
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Tour de France Champion
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So, any reason why we are crazy...? With 78, possible 79, he is in contention for L-B-L and Il Lombardia and due to his great other stats he ends up winning them on a regular basis. This is something that is not the case IRL and is unlikely to happen, since Sagan doesn't seem to target these races. He even gets dropped by riders such as Cancellara or Vanmarcke on the hills of the flanders classics, so... excatly why should he have 78, because of a 3rd at Amstel few years ago? Why is it okay for other riders to get reduced stats when they change but not Sagan? 75 is still a great value and is enough for his hilly stage racing wins. It's just not enough for him to compete in the Ardennes classics or in the Vuelta.
Edited by Shonak on 27-05-2014 08:10
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:22
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World Champion
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Ehm, remind me who pawned Valverde,Kreuziger and Cunego at Strade Bianchi this year, when Valverde was in top form?
Or who has beaten Nibali, Purito and others last year at Tirreno hilly stage or Gilbert at Brabantse Pilj. Or Rui Costa + Kreuziger at Suisse, his long range attacks in hilly stages at Tour or 6th place at Worlds without teammates for last 50kms?
Sagan has his goals in late March + cobbled classics, it would be insane to want him see deliver also in Ardennes after that hard early season. If he targeted only Ardennes, he would be constant top5 rider for Amstel/Fleche. LBL should be about mountain stat too...
You can pretend there is world where Sagan is average 75 hill rider, but anything under 77looks like unreal to me. 
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 27-05-2014 08:23
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| Shonak |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:41
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Tour de France Champion
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Why Average 75 Hill rider? I'm saying his hill stat should be 75, he's average should be still god awful high.
It's not only about his quality though, it's also about race planning. When he has too high hill stat, he ends up seriously targeting races like the Ardennes, Lombardia or even the Vuelta (and thus skips the Tour for it for example). In my pretended PCM world I live rather great with Sagan at 75, max'ed 76. If Sagan ends up targeting the Ardennes and performs there, then yes, he can have 78-79 or even higher, but right now: I don't see the reasoning behind it. "If he targeted only Ardennes, he would be constant top5 rider for Amstel/Fleche", it's just that... IF! If he targeted the Ardennes, but he doesn't target them.
Valverde went faster up the finale climb than Kwiatkowski in Strade Bianche, I understand something entirely different under "pawned". That is to say, maybe you mean Kwiatkowski when you talk about owning. Tirreno and Tour de Suisse have been sprints in the end. He would have beaten those guys with 75 too, just as he would have followed their attacks. He was crazy strong in Brabantse Pijl. Something like +5 strong, but he still just won slightly to a sub-par Gilbert Version of 2013, who has won one stage in 2013. World Championships 6th? So, he won a sprint against guys like Clarke, Cancellara and Geschke amongst others.
In any case, I fail to see how a few results should grant a sprinter/northern specialist such a high hill stat, especially when you add the numerous, many many occassions where he couldn't hang on to superior puncheurs, climbers or Cancellara.
Edited by Shonak on 27-05-2014 09:38
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:54
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Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really 
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| jph27 |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:03
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really
Put it this way, make him 76HIL and 79/80SP and you have the equivalent of Man-Game Van Stayen. And we know how good he is in hilly classics with those stats |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:05
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World Champion
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jph27 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really
Put it this way, make him 76HIL and 79/80SP and you have the equivalent of Man-Game Van Stayen. And we know how good he is in hilly classics with those stats
You mean in PCT where he meet max 80-81 hill opposition and usually rather under 80 guys?
Argument invalid. 
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| Shonak |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:06
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really
Yes, you have listed a few results. To be precise: You have mentioned 6 races, nothing else... sigh
But to be even more clear: " I fail to see how a few results should grant a sprinter/northern specialist such a high hill stat". With this, I mean that he has very few results that are able to maybe back up the given 78 hill stat. Those results actually shouldn't grant him 78 though. He has outstanding results in terms of sprinting and cobblez and even attacking riding. But not at aall when it comes to hilly riding, and except for the 3rd place at Amstel two years prior, he can achieve any of those results with 75 HL (and probably he can even get 3rd at Amstel too).
EDIT: Highest Hill value is 81 too in the DB...
Edited by Shonak on 27-05-2014 09:34
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:40
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I think that Sagan could've gotten a very high hill stat, but he chose to focus on the cobbles. Allrounders no longer exist in cycling you have to make choices. I have no doubt Sagan could be a top puncheur if he focuses on it, but he didn't. Just like Gilbert could've been a great cobbler, but chose the Ardennes instead.
I think that with great acceleration, flat, endurance, a very good sprint, a 76-77ish hill stat should be enough for him.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| kyle |
Posted on 27-05-2014 13:17
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MartijnVDD wrote:
I'm having difficulties deciding Thurau's stats. Any help?
I belive he deserves a significant change on his stats as well.. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 27-05-2014 14:14
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Sagan ends up targeting Ardennes, Vuelta and Lombardia way too often in my careers, resulting in not even racing the cobbled races. Yes, the last 5 RVV's I raced were without him.
On the other hand, 3 of the last 5 Vuelta's saw him in the Top 10 of the GC.
Realistic? No. Rather have him slightly worse in the hilly Tour stages than have a fucked up race planning.
kyle wrote:
[quote]MartijnVDD wrote:
I'm having difficulties deciding Thurau's stats. Any help?
It's really not easy indeed. Very allround-ish, probably around 72-73 for all of FL, MO, HIL and COB.
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| kyle |
Posted on 27-05-2014 16:46
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I just changed the MO and HIL stats.. 73 and 71 respectively |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 11-09-2026 20:12
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 27-05-2014 20:05
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That's a lot though. He's been a good domestique and strong attacker, but he didn't get the results to deserve a change to 73, imo. |
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| gotlandrules |
Posted on 27-05-2014 20:13
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When we're on the case of Hill stats, i think many of the GC-guys are overrated in HI, many of the good climbers are worse on the shorter hilly stuff.
On another note, how to deal with Duarte? there is no consistency-stat in the game (right?)  On a good day he is 80 MO, on a bad day he's like 60
And Sagan really needs to be lowered in HI, he will be able to get realistic results with 75-76 HI and hopefully his schedule gets more realistic aswell.
Edited by gotlandrules on 27-05-2014 20:15
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| Martial1 |
Posted on 28-05-2014 02:15
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gotlandrules wrote: On another note, how to deal with Duarte? there is no consistency-stat in the game (right?) On a good day he is 80 MO, on a bad day he's like 60
Give him a low recovery stat, that should do it |
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| gotlandrules |
Posted on 28-05-2014 02:28
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Martial1 wrote:
gotlandrules wrote: On another note, how to deal with Duarte? there is no consistency-stat in the game (right?) On a good day he is 80 MO, on a bad day he's like 60
Give him a low recovery stat, that should do it
He seems to have good recovery though so thats wrong, might be the best way to mimic something thats not in the game. But his recovery isnt bad IRL |
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 28-05-2014 08:08
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Consistency would be a nice addition to the game. It should influence daily form, I think. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 28-05-2014 08:11
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World Champion
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gotlandrules wrote:
And Sagan really needs to be lowered in HI, he will be able to get realistic results with 75-76 HI and hopefully his schedule gets more realistic aswell.
He will never win the green jersey with these stats, as his hill was main advantage on Cav and Kittel. Shit calendar managment is here to blame, it seems like Sagan has his goals from 2011 hardcoded into the game and thus he goes for vuelta and adennes.
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| Shonak |
Posted on 28-05-2014 08:33
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Tour de France Champion
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He still has a huge hill advantage over Cav and Kittel with 75 HL oO
Plus, with the high fighter stat and the solid mountain stats, he contests in many hilly stages as well as at the intermediate sprints of MT stages.
If you wonder if he goes into breakaways: Actually, it's more likely with lower Hill stat, since he won't be considered so much a favourite. (EDIT: In case you're wondering, Sagan wins the Green Jersey on a regular basis if his form is solid)
Don't think his goals are hardcoded: Sagan goes always MSR, Flanders, Tour and WC since I reduced his Hill stat. Like in Cio's career, Sagan oftentimes ended up riding the Vuelta as a wrong GC contender (not even contesting sprint stages against Cav eg).
Edited by Shonak on 28-05-2014 08:37
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 28-05-2014 08:48
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World Champion
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It seems that we both have different game installed,are you talking about PCM13? Because in 90% in my careers, Cav or Kittel win the green even with Sagan present, even with his 78hill, so i would be really surprised to see him doing it "regulary" with 75. How many careers do you tried after lowering him to 75 so you are able to talk about regularity?
Fighter is irrelevant, as it is barely functional stat. Only secondary stat that matters is acceleration...
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 28-05-2014 08:48
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| Shonak |
Posted on 28-05-2014 09:10
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Tour de France Champion
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The reasoning behind it makes it already clear in my eyes why that is the case: With lower Hill stat, the AI treats him more like a sprinter, thus he focuses stronger on le Tour (He has 80 SP in my DB, thus he's closer to Cav and Kittel than in the PCMDB). Of course, when a guy like Kittel is dominating every sprint, chances are, Sagan won't have a shot at Green either. But I havn't experienced such a Tour yet in my few PCM careers.
I've played a few seasons in PCM 2013 (don't own it for so long), though I admit that the same issue arose to me first in PCM 2012 - where it worked similiarly. Certainly too little careers to give you a representative sample in PCM2013 though, so scuzzi for the exaggeration. He did end up targeting the Vuelta though, and other guys said so too.
AI-stuff aside, I still think that Sagan results justify only at best a 75-76 HL stat (up to discussion). Anything above 76 is too much based upon his virtues, the hype surrounding him and too much focus on his very few, tough hill-results in my opinion.
Edited by Shonak on 28-05-2014 09:12
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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