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14-04-2021 11:38
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PCM.daily » PCM.daily's Management Game » [Man-Game] The Rules and Announcements
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Confirmation of Division Changes 19-20
roturn
Here it is, the full list of division changes for the upcoming season.

PCT > PT
cycleYorkshire
ISA - Hexacta
Rakuten Pro Cycling
Team UBS
Volvo acc. by Spotify

5 automatic promoted teams. All of them deserve to ride against the best next season with some surprises I guess. For cycleYorkshire and ISA - Hexacta it`s a first!


CT > PCT
Azteca - NBCSN
Aramco DP
GCN Racing
Nordstrom - CA Technologies
DK - SVA Zalgiris
Adastra N Hell Energy Cycling

4 of the Top 5 due to ranking position plus 7th and 8th of the CT in DK - SVA Zalgiris and Adastra N Hell Energy Cycling due to disbands.


Some teams in PT and PCT lost the fight and are relegating. Those are:

PT > PCT
Fablok - Chocolate Jacques
Farfetch Pro Cycling
Podium Ambition
Repsol - Netflix
Mapei

All 5 due to position in the rankings. No disband in the PT other than that, which is great to see!
So this is the reason, why Pluchkin remains in PCT to the joy of all PCT managers. Wink

PCT > CT
Carlsberg - Danske Bank
Carrefour - ESPN
Philips
Sauber Petronas Racing
Team Europcar

5 relegated teams due to position.

Some more teams in PCT and CT will come to an end: Those are Kulczyk - Alitalia, Netia - Vonin, Bianchi - Campagnolo, CYBEX Platinum and OMV Petrom-Albania.al. Actually most of them ended already early in last years season.
While most of those were obvious for not posting for quite some time now, Netia - Vonin was the final decision after a full season of inactivity and when repeatedly given the chance to come back anyway, the activity in responses simply wasn`t good enough to get the spot or even promotion, which imo still is sad to see as trekbmc was a good manager, who gave quite a lot of work into the MG organization as well.


For the moment this makes it 22 PT teams, 26 PCT and 12 CT teams + 6 already announced new managers joining the CT making it a nice number of 18 teams in the smallest division.
 
the_hoyle
Well done to all those promoting! Good luck in the new divisions.

Some big names and teams coming down the divisions, making the PCT and CT even tougher than it already is.

Shame to see the teams disband, expecially Netia after they had a great season
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SotD
Wow - No disbands so only the "real" promoters this time. That's something new indeed. Well done PT managers!

Big congrats to all promoted teams, and "get back up" to all the relegators Smile
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DubbelDekker
Great to have zero disbands in PT and very little in PCT! Having such a stable core is good for the game.

Shame to see trek go.
i.imgur.com/5iNQj.png
 
Fabianski
A shame to see two of my fellow newbie managers drop out after only one year - especially disappointing for Bianchi, who were the best of the new teams...

On the other hand, it's great to see close to no disbands in PT and PCT - one out of 48 is actually great news for the game!

Congrats to all the promoted teams!
 
sgdanny
Very sad to see my two polish companions leave MG, hope someone else joins our nation
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MacC
I was only one place of first season promotion, jeepers. Probably for the best
 
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AbhishekLFC
I was really looking forward to racing against Zalgiris. This is a travesty!

Seriously though, congrats to all the promoters, including quadsas Pfft

Back to the CT after two unsuccessful years in PCT. Let's see where we go from here.

Really sad to see trek not continuing. Was really hoping that he'd come back.
 
quadsas
Haters in absolute shambles. I dont even know if I wanted to promote, but well see how PCT feels like.

whitejersey wrote:
quadsas wrote:
Welcome, your objective for season one is to finish ahead of Philips. Good luck


Absolute scenes when you don't promote but a bunch of the new guys do.



Aged like fine milk
Manager of the greatest team in the world
DK Žalgiris
 
maxime86
Dang painful to go down by a mere 5 points while the 7th and 8th CT spots still get to promoted honestly...

Super dissapointing to lose Trek, hopefully he pulls a Scorchio and pops back up again out of no where, although hopefully with less success now that we're in the CT again
 
trekbmc
Hey guys, so I guess I'm not continuing. I kinda always hoped my motivation would come back but it just never did and honestly, I'm not surprised. It was really rough back when my team was dropped to feel like everybody just turned on me a bit. I gave a lot to this game, spent hours reporting, making plans, etc. and then suddenly I was relegating because a race was a mess with the AI and it felt like everybody just wanted to keep the result because it suited them better (there were many people arguing against the Cyprus replay who went in expecting a nothing race but scored big due to the terrible result, while most other victims weren't very active)

Anyway, I don't want to get into the argument about that race again, but it really hurt that there was never any sort of consolation or apology for the way things panned out, I mean they literally decided they were gonna save a relegating team and picked Lierse! You guys literally bent the rules to fix your mistakes and then saved the wrong team. Who finished less than 20 points ahead of us anyway. That's a good way to kick someone while they're down, thanks admins. (nothing against Lierse btw, they just got caught in the middle) Literally a simple sorry at any point probably would've made me feel a bit better at least. (oh and whichever people nominated/voted it for Cyprus as race of the year, was that a joke, what was that?)

But in the end it's just a game and if it's making me sad, I shouldn't play it, so I didn't and then my motivation never came back, I don't even know what riders I had on my team this season other than my talents core + Kwiat and every time I tried to stay active again I just got bored because I couldn't care less about CT races and my plans were all totally messed up by the relegation to the point where it was gonna take several seasons all planned out well to get back to where I was anyway and I knew I wasn't gonna spend that time on it.

I'm really sad that it ended like this, I really loved this game and had so much fun and made a lot of friends. I'll still show up on the site sometimes, I still need to hype Laporte and maybe one day my stage making motivation will come back.

Anyway, even though it's not really goodbye, this feels like a goodbye post, so thanks to everybody who made this site great. I know that most people care more about my talents being on the market then me leaving, but I guess that's the game, just as long as whoever gets Veyhe makes sure he wins a PT classic, and if Roturn, tsmoha or anybody else who argued for no Cyprus replay go after any of my talents, give them hell please.

Also if you do need to contact me, I'm kinda activeish on Discord and still check skype out of curiosity sometimes (I still like Skype more though, lol) so feel free to message me there or get someone else to tell me to check my PMs, lol.
Edited by trekbmc on 03-09-2020 12:13



"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
 
roturn
Sorry to say and as said, I had hoped to see you remain in the game, trek, but while Cyprus surely wasn`t ideal and as I told you lots of times already, no one voted against a replay, it simply was off the radar for some and one race alone barely defines a full season normally, the whole story around Lierse and saving them had nothing to do with any kind of PCT performances or deserving as they "deserved" to go down as well normally this year but CT simply was full of inactive managers not having anyone to fill the spot back then.

Regarding your apology/consolidation text, I still feel, you turn things around a lot there as I did all I could to save your team! Doing all the offseason work last year, allowing a full season of inactivity, still letting your team promote then and was allowing you to come back into PCT if only you had shown some activity in the past ~3-4 weeks. I see this as quite a big consolidation really.

---

In the end, I hope you might find motivation again in future and just like other managers this year can celebrate a comeback after a break. Your work for the ManGame and the site in general was always appreciated and you had been a good part of PCM.Daily clearly. So all the best and happy to see you around from time to time.
 
trekbmc
Sorry if I came off as too vindictive there Roturn, Thanks for putting up with me this season and trying to keep us in the game (though you only did 1 off season task for me, not all Pfft), I guess I was still just a bit frustrated by how unmoving/unapologetic your initial reaction was, especially in regards to when I made posts about the route or application of the replay policy in the future. Also saving Lierse definitely was just not the move at all (you still could've saved both if you were that intent on saving a team, at the point you were saving them you're bending the rules anyway).

Also, I'm just gonna be clear that the reason Cyprus broke our season was because of how bad our luck had been beforehand, Vantomme had a terrible season and Kwiat was underperforming a bit too, and the worst part is we didn't even need to score in Cyprus to avoid relegation (despite having the favourite), it was just that the race also happened to gift Carslberg a huge amount of points, despite them bringing a team with no real scoring prospects.



"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
 
maxime86
trekbmc wrote:
Also saving Lierse definitely was just not the move at all (you still could've saved both if you were that intent on saving a team, at the point you were saving them you're bending the rules anyway).


I'm sorry for jumping in onto this point but I could not agree with you more here. I guess this is now going to be a big post so sorry in advance.

In 2018, Lierse stayed up while 9th place Sauber was the lowest team to promote.
In 2019, Carrefour had to go down while the 8th place Adastra was the lowest team to promote.

Hypothetically, if Lierse had gone down, the next team to go up in 2018 would have been Hoyle's 11th placed GCN as 10th place Costa Rica disbanded. So reasonably I'm going to compare Adastra and GCN as teams who were promoted despite not having an actual claim to promotion as they finished far off promotion places.

Although the place differential between 11 and 8 seems significant, GCN in 2018 had a higher PPRD and total points scored than Adastra had in 2019, despite 2018 being a much more hotly-contested CT division. In 2018, Places 6-11 were seperated by about 300 points, while the 6-11 place difference in 2019 was about 600 points with the division's total points being about the same (about 26,000 points total) over those two years.

But, I do respect Roturn saying it did not have to do with points but rather with involvement with the man game. However, Adastra this season went 8 months without an HQ post, and although they were very involved, missed a good amount of reports between the Corsica International and Montery TTT. Obviously IvanEurope is extremely involved, if not one of the most active managers, not saying that he isn't. But on the other hand, in 2018 The Hoyle was more consistent with his HQ updates and commented on the vast majority of his team's race discussions untill the Tour of San Luis which was 3/4s into the season. So I wonder where the line is actually drawn here.

I know that I of all people should not be one to grade individuals involvement in this game as over the last 5? (shoot it's been a while) years I haven't been the most active to say the least. However, I feel like the basis on which Lierse was allowed to stay up in 2018, despite having a substantially bigger margin to the safety zone compared to us this season, was very subjective. Totally understandable given the nature of this game, but I really would appreciate a "Rules and Announcements" thread of somesort making all of this clear.

Also, I really hope this does not come off as me complaining about returning to the CT in any way. Our team was probably going to relegate next year from the PCT anyway given Coppel, Vanderbiest and Nolf's age. However, I feel like this is something that is really important to clear up as clearly I am not the only one who was taken aback by these developments. Hope this doesn't come off as salty or disrespectful as that's really the least of my intentions.

Trek - Sorry again for hijacking this thread a bit despite your long post. I just wanted this to be voiced somewhere public and not just in my PMs with Roturn and once I realized you had picked up on this relegation/promotion weirdness as well, I just thought it fit well here.

If others have thoughts, I would really like hearing them.
 
roturn
Please don't make me go back to 1-2 year old posts checking for everything.

In short for future reference:
5 down, 5 up as usual.
Going up can happen due to disbands.

Last year was a different case as we already went outside the top10 of CT as unfortunately it was a year of many disband. At one point I decided that activity was either not given in CT or the team was not performing enough to deserve it as already couple additional teams went up other than the top5.

This year only 2 teams additionally went up. So nothing comparable to last year. This year extremely low in disbands.

In no way I tried to save any kind of team for other reasons as above. And with only one spot left, there also was no way to even save two teams.
 
trekbmc
Thanks for making that post Maxime, makes me feel less alone in how I feel like I'm losing out in the inconsistent ways these rules have been applied. I agree with you completely and really wish there was a clear statement made on the rules (after it happened to me I asked multiple times for the rules on a couple things to be stated clearly somewhere). I also regret not making a post about it specifically when it happened to me as well, because PMing Roturn about it didn't really get me anywhere or bring light to the situation at all :/

EDIT: Zabel'd, my bad.



"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
 
Shonak
roturn wrote:
Some more teams in PCT and CT will come to an end: Those are Kulczyk - Alitalia

Time for someone to come home.
Unleash the Landa!
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maxime86
roturn wrote:
Please don't make me go back to 1-2 year old posts checking for everything.

Last year was a different case as we already went outside the top10 of CT as unfortunately it was a year of many disband. At one point I decided that activity was either not given in CT or the team was not performing enough to deserve it as already couple additional teams went up other than the top5.

This year only 2 teams additionally went up. So nothing comparable to last year. This year extremely low in disbands.


This is actually clear and I appreciate the message, if this could be in a Rules and Announcement Thread clearly that would be much appreciated.

Also I am not trying to get you to "go back 1-2 years checking everything" rather than just trying to understand what's going on. I understand you being frustrated as the organizer of all this, which I respect, appreciate and empathize with a ton. But I'm not just asking these things for the sake of bothering you lol, cause actually as you can see with my post above, I was the one who just went back and checked 1-2 years of everything. If there was a super evident place where this discussion took place I apologize for missing it, but it seems like these things are not super clear to guys like Trek and I, so as a solution I think a thread or place of somesort where this is explicitly described would be nice.

Also, I was once a CT team who promoted due to disbandments as well so I am not challenging that system either, rather than just trying to understand what goes into this decision as it's a understandably subjective process.

Regardless, the specific part about "went outside the top10 of CT" being an important factor had not been made clear at all previously nor had the amount of additional teams that went up, as over PM you mostly just said 'how active' teams were, but I really appreciate the clarity there is now, so seriously thank you for taking the time to explain this Roturn.

Anyway, hopefully this public discussion makes people like me and @trek more aware of these difficult grey areas. Would love to see you comeback sometime Trek, but good luck with everything else you have going on in the meantime.


Edit: yes sorry, now that we're good, back to 2020 talk. Apologies for these fat text blocks, just wanted to understand what was happening.
 
roturn
@maxime:
The rules must be somewhere or in the FAQs. That says what I said in the short above.
What you mean with subjective process in case of disbandings, this is hard really.

In perfect world or in real sport teams usually don't disband or sponsorship being simply taken over.
In MG and disband is annoying and making it hard for us. Usually, similar to this year, is just few and easy to adjust. This year even easier with only PCT/CT impacted.

Last year had quite a few disbands in all divisions and while normally going the same way as always, it came to a limit with the amount. Hopefully a one season issue only as normally it's much less.
6-7 years ago it also was different as there used to be more manager applications as we then accepted spots. Something we rarely have these days.

Hope this explains it a bit more to you.
 
maxime86
Definitely makes a lot of sense despite the tough nature of this stuff, appreciate you taking the time to explain. Honestly, I'm still kind of struggling to find where the rule is in the FAQ's but at least if this explanation is here, we can link people to this if they have questions.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the explanation and thoughts behind it.
 
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