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PCM.daily » Pro Cycling Manager 2020 » PCM 20: PCM.daily Projects
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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
AiZaK
Guys, when finish Vuelta a EspaƱa are you going to upload only update stats or V2 is coming too???

Thx!
 
Ho0liGaN
I've seen a lot of people advocating against upping stats. May I ask why. Going from a max stat of 82 to a max of 84 like it used to be 10-15 years ago (yes, I've been playing this game since 2004)

It's pretty clear that when you start a career the max stat is that 84 range, with young and unknown riders being able to completely outclass the riders that are currently considered the best within only a season or two.

Having a lower max stat also makes it more difficult to have a clear difference between types of riders. Should, in theory also solve the problem that a lot of riders are deserving of stats in the low 70's as the best performers will have have a bigger gap to them.

What some of you are proposing is lowering the bottom stats across the bord. which would make sense, and would result in the same bigger gaps that i'm trying to create. Problem is however these new and young riders who will be super dominating after 2 seasons.

Biggest reason I would like to see max stats increased in to make the FOTD have a smaller impact on the race. It's not unusual to see riders gain 6-7-8 stats on a +3 or+4 day. If they would have lower max stats, these differences would mean an even greater variance. We also know there is a max stat that the game calculates. Giving a rider 100 in a stat doesn't work, I'm unsure what the actual max stat is, I think it used be 87 back in the days. But when riders are reaching the max possible stat that the game uses it will at least fix part of that problem instead of making it bigger
Edited by Ho0liGaN on 01-11-2020 17:00
 
baseballlover312
Ho0liGaN makes a good point. That has happened for many years in PCM careers. You can try to fight inflation with the DB, but then the young guys will just develop way past them anyway.
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Tafiolmo
Aizak- The rest of the DB Team is super busy at the moment with real life stuff but when I'm in contact with them I'll ask but there will certainly be a stats update at least but of course a full update is much better for a end of season update.

Hooligan- These were my sentiments that the whole matrix should be stretched out with more riders going to 82 and 83 which is easy to do as we have already done some stretching out in all stats at the moment, as there was a case of a huge grouping for example of riders with climbing stats at 77, 78 and 79 and by stretching these up and down seems to be the key. I'm also in favour of spreading downwards as well but that will take a lot more time and probably better for next season's DB than the end of year one.
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LoT
I am not sure this is the right thread, but I'm very interested in your opinions. I think the STAT EVOLUTION model needs a bit of a change for the next edition, or - if it is possible - for a new patch or even database version.

So basically what happens nowdays is that after teams discovering different measurements techniques in data analysis, we see that 21-23 year old guys can win three week tours. As I gather the explaination is simple: they can measure the exact limits of riders, and they can see if a youngster could cope with a 3w tour. The watt-measurements provide them the exact tactics, they wont blow themselves up. AND because of that we also learned something I think.
In PCM language, the evolution of certain stats aren't the same az others'. We can see that RECOVERY can get very high in matter of 1-2 years. I think the REC stat's evolution is quite different then the most of the others. I suggest that the correct model of REC would be: It gets to its maximum with perfect training at around 22-23, and it stays there for 4-5 years. And lets say when a rider reaches 28, its starts to go down very gently. And when a rider reaches the year at which he starts to decline ( in PCM its usually 33, but that's an other thing to fix, because many riders keep top form till like 35-36 ), so when the rider reaches that age, rec declines more drastically.
For example Pogacar right now has an incredible high REC, look at the last competetive stage of TDF. He was clearly a number below Roglic in the mountains ( I think Rog 82, Pog 81 ), and I suppose his RES is lower too. In TT, they are about the same, maybe Pog 81, Rog 80? ... but Pog's recovery is incredible, just as all the youngsters' in recent years with podium finishes ( mas, bernal, pog ). It tells me that REC has a different evolution. I think Pogacar REC is around 82 now, and it is already at its peak. And I think the realistic evolution for him could be like: He stays 82 until 27 years old, and than he slowly declines to 77 until lets say year 35, and after that it can drop yearly.
There is an other stat like that: ACCELERATION. Its almost the same. These two gets up to their peak much sooner, and it start to (slowly) decline also sooner than others. Sprint is also like that to a merit ( lets say peaks at 24, slow decline at 29, hard decline at decline-age) On the other hand, STA, RES, FLAT and DH are the opposite, they peak even later, than other stats, I think they peak at 30 and dont decline at all until like 34.

I think this is the next step for stat evolution. What do you all think?
 
AiZaK
@Tafiolmo Any changes in Top Climbers in the next update???
 
King_Ric
Especially the ones in Vuelta, how are they rated?
 
Arberg
Pogacar: 82M0, 78HI, 75RES, 76END, 82REC, 81ATT, 66SP, 76ACC, 76TT, 75PR, 75DO, 63CO, 73PY.

Roglic: 82MO, 78HI, 77RES, 74END, 76REC, 75ATT, 69SP, 78ACC, 78TT, 77PR, 80DO, 64CO, 74PY.

Bernal: 82M0, 77HI, 75RES, 75END, 80REC, 79ATT, 64SP, 76ACC, 73TT, PR72, 76DO, CO62, 73PY.
Edited by Arberg on 07-11-2020 20:49
 
Tafiolmo
Given the fact that 83 in mtn and hill wasn't that popular an idea, we have therefore decided to keep 82 for now the max mtn and hill stat, unless of course members feel differently. It was realistically only going to be two riders anyway in Pogacar and Alaphilippe that would've had that stat. Also most of the main climbers are still the same but some changes in backups and mostly rec etc. 83 though is being more used in sprinting, TT, sta and rec.

For the Giro and Vuelta: If Hindley and Tao are worth 79 with average to weak backup stats then Carthy for example is clearly worth 80 or even 81 as he was the best climber at the Vuelta with Carapaz and in a stronger field than at the Giro. But to counter this, I did notice that the old Vuelta decline for some riders was noticeable as well. The riders that rode for GC at the Tour in Roglic and Mas weren't as good as they were at the Tour whereas riders who rode the Tour as a dom or just rode it in general went well like Carthy, Carapaz and D. Martin, so all of these riders have been statted taking the quality of the startlists into account and other factors.

Lot- Thanks for the post about sprinters and as this will take some time to plan and test as there are a number of theories here, with some comments suggesting almost diverse solutions to the problem. These future changes to the sprinters will be for next season rather than this season because of a lack of time but there have been some temporary changes to the sprinters to see if there is some kind of improvement.
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Arberg
If Ganna and Groenewegen are 83 in TT and SP, well then Alaphilippe and Pogacar should also be 83 in MO and HI.

MO:
83: Pogacar
82: Roglic, Pinot, Lopez, Bernal,
81: Landa, Porte, Kuss, S.Yates, Buchmann, Carapaz, Kruijswijk
80: Quintana, Uran, A.Yates, Bardet, Mas, Thomas
79: Dumoulin , D.Martin, Hindley, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Carthy
78: Valverde, Froome, Fuglsang, Bilbao, Caruso, Nibali, Kelderman, Poels, Gaudu
Edited by Arberg on 08-11-2020 08:24
 
AiZaK
@Arberg: Seriously Roglic REC 76??? SERIOUSLY???

Here you are some results in last 2 years:

1st Vuelta a EspaƱa 2020
2nd Tour of France 2020
1st Tour de l'Ain 2020
1st Vuelta EspaƱa 2019
3rd Giro de Italia 2019
1st Tour de Romandie 2019
1st Tirreno-Adriatico 2019
1st UAE Tour 2019
4th Toour of France 2018
1st Tour of Slovenia 2018
1st Tour de Romandie 2018
1st Itzulia Basque Country 2018
Etc etc....
He can't win everything, and he can't be in perfect physical form all the year

In my opinion Roglic is the best rider for win a Grand Tour
 
Arberg
AiZaK wrote:
@Arberg: Seriously Roglic REC 76??? SERIOUSLY???
Yes, maybe even less, Roglic is clearly having a hard time recovering at the end of GTs. So we last year in giro, this year in tour and vuelta.

AiZaK wrote:
In my opinion Roglic is the best rider for win a Grand Tour
No, Pogacar is better, even without a team against a super strong team!
Edited by Arberg on 08-11-2020 08:24
 
Arberg
Arberg wrote:
If Ganna and Groenewegen are 83 in TT and SP, well then Alaphilippe and Pogacar should also be 83 in MO and HI.

MO:
83: Pogacar
82: Roglic, Pinot, Lopez, Bernal,
81: Landa, Porte, Kuss, S.Yates, Buchmann, Carapaz, Kruijswijk
80: Quintana, Uran, A.Yates, Bardet, Mas, Thomas
79: Dumoulin , D.Martin, Hindley, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Carthy
78: Valverde, Froome, Fuglsang, Bilbao, Caruso, Nibali, Kelderman, Poels, Gaudu
What do mountain stats look like among the best?
 
AiZaK
In my opinion:

82 - Pogacar, Roglic, Carapaz, Pinot, Superman Lopez
81 - Bernal, Landa, Porte, Simon Yates, Buchmann, Bardet, Kuss
80 - Kruijswijk, Nairo Quintana, Enric Mas, Geraint Thomas, UrƔn, Adam Yates
79 - Dan Martin, Carthy, Bilbao, Geoghegan Hart, Vlasov
78 - Hindley, Dumoulin, Valverde, Caruso, Gaudu, Nibali, Poels, Kelderman, Woods, Esteban Chaves, Guillaume Martin
77 - David de la Cruz, Ion Izaguirre, Fabio Aru, Marc Soler, Mikel Nieve,...
76 - Froome,...
 
Arberg
Pinot, Carapaz and Lopez are no better than Bernal. Bernal won TDF last year.
 
AiZaK
But this year Bernal was not good... Last year Froome 82 and now he is 76 for me

In 1 year it happens many things
 
Arberg
AiZaK wrote:
But this year Bernal was not good... Last year Froome 82 and now he is 76 for me

In 1 year it happens many things
Have you seen Pinot? :lol:
 
Tafiolmo
Remember that we always take last year into account as well especially after this strange and short season. There are some exceptions of course with certain riders like Froome and some guesswork needs to be done with others. In regards to Roglic I'm one of the few that seems to think that there is a rec problem there and it's his achilles heel because without it, he would be the best GT rider overall and if this Vuelta had another big mtn stage or two he probably would've lost the Vuelta. I think both Carapaz and Carthy would've finished higher than him.

Also this stat matrix is higher than normal with more riders now being on 82, 81 and 80 than before in order to stretch things out more and hopefully next season we can have more 83's depending on how these stats go. This was done because we had something like more than 20 riders on 78 mtn and these have been moved up or down to make to decrease this by several riders. So when I had the choice to put a rider on a choice of two stats I went with the higher one.

Therefore a lot of these riders it needs to be noted could be a strong stat like Carapaz who is a strong 81 and will feel more like 82 while Quintana is a weak 81 and feel like an 80. There are also some 'risky stats' like Carthy 81, Vlasov and Martinez 80. The reasoning behind this is that if Hindley and Tao are worth 79 then imo these three riders are better. Carthy surprised me how well he went over the three weeks at the Vuelta and only by making him higher than Uran will he get possible leadership in that team for a GT. Martinez is another winning Dauphine but then crashes at both the Tour and Vuelta ruining what could've been but I also think that both of these could be less at 80 and 79. Vlasov already looks like a GT leader for Astana next season and again could be 79. The only concern I've got with some of these stats is that if a rider like Vlasov gets a +4 or +5 how well will he go at a GT with such a high stat.

(Provisional Stats and probably changed especially if 83 is to be used)

82- Pogacar, Roglic, Pinot, Bernal, Lopez
81- Landa, Porte, S.Yates, Buchmann, Carapaz, Kuss, Kruijswijk, Quintana
80- Uran, Bardet, Mas, A.Yates, Dumoulin, Thomas, G.Martin, Carthy, Vlasov, Martinez or Martinez and Vlasov at 79
79- D.Martin, Gaudu, Tao, Hindley, Nibali, Bilbao, Remco, Sivakov, Majka, Sosa
Some of the 78's: Froome, Kelderman, Caruso, Fuglsang, Poels, Almeida

Comments and suggestions as always welcome but bear in mind that a whole load of other stats will effect how good these riders are, so don't just look at their mtn stats.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 08-11-2020 23:05
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AiZaK
Arberg wrote:
AiZaK wrote:
But this year Bernal was not good... Last year Froome 82 and now he is 76 for me

In 1 year it happens many things
Have you seen Pinot? :lol:


I think Pinot was ill in Tour de France
 
Vali
Hm I'm not really too sure about Carthy being 81 while Tao and Hindley are 79 and for example Almeida is 78. I know that the Giro was extremely weak, but it's not like Hindley and Tao were just there or therabouts, they were by far the strongest climbers in last 10 days or so (also much better than Almeida with 78, who presumably has a much higher FL, so not sure if they will actually be stronger in-game). So maybe 80 for them, if the stat matrix got raised in general?

Carthy is a tough case, as his backups are probably not too strong, I don't think 80 would be too wrong here though. This is a strange season and shape is a bit of a question mark, so I think in a PCM career mode he could easily get 3rd with 80 MO (I think).

But in total the gap between Carthy and Tao and Hindley should be max 1 Point I would say
Credits to the_hoyle for my avatar.
 
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