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28-05-2020 16:45
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PCM.daily » Pro Cycling Manager 2019 » PCM 19: General
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MON-HIL/ITT-PRL: how they currently work?
jesulo
Hey. I've been researching on how and when the game uses which stat, and I'm not sure what to conclude. The most up to date info I've found says the mechanic is rythm-related, so the closest your rider is to 70, the more important is the MON stat, and the closest he is to 90, the more important is the HILL one. Is that correct? Because over the several threads I've read on this forum and Steam, very few people seem to understand how the game works.

In any case, if this is how it works, I don't know how should I play. I mean, if I set my rider to a low rythm, say 70-75, he'll fall WELL behind way before the last climb. This is using the Stay in position order. With this order, I usually need to set his rythm over 90 to stay with the group. So, unless he's a top puncheur, he loses almost all of his yellow bar too soon.

What about the time trials? I didn't find much info on that. When does the game uses the ITT stat and when the PRL?

Hope you guys help me, it's hard to play a complex game when its devs hide its gameplay mechanics instead of explain them to the players.

Cheers.
 
Ulrich Ulriksen
This thread should cover you. This is 18 but I don't think there were significant changes in 19,

https://pcmdaily....rowstart=0
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling
 
jesulo
Thanks a lot.

Then in any mountain stage the HIL stat will be crucial anyway, because the group of the top riders will go faster than 85 for at least the final 1/3 of the stage. Either I didn't get it, or I don't like too much this system.

I'll throw another question for everyone: when you set the order Maintain position, does your rider goes at the minimum pace needed to maintain his position even if his rythm is higher, or should you tweak his rythm so it isn't too high, because he will waste energy? I mean, if the group is riding at 80, and I order my rider to Maintain position but his rythm is set at 90, will he spend energy as if he's riding at 80 or 90? In the second half of any stage, either I set my top rider's rythm to +90 or he falls back, so again, that'd mean the HIL stat is what decides mountain stages.
 
Ulrich Ulriksen
Second question first - my understanding is that with maintain position the rider will go as fast as needed to maintain his position up to the limiit you set. So if you set 90 and the pack is going 80 he will ride at 80 assuming his attributes match the pack. If he is weaker than the pack he may need the 90 to match the rate. If it flashes red then he isn't going fast enough to maintain position and will drop back.

I am not the expert on the mountain/hill but I don't think it is necessary for a good mountain rider to have a a great hill stat. Practically most of the race is ridden below 85.

I have seen more concern with the opposite. A good hill rider needs a decent mountain stat because in a hilly race with a lot of climbing much of it is done at below 85 when the mountain stat is used.

Also not sure 85 is still right, i think maybe that went up.
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling
 
jesulo
Thanks again, pal!
 
Kentaurus
In general much of this is correct.

Though I do not think the MO-HI is set based on a range from 70-90, it is rather based on the range 85-99 (Red Bar usage area). Hill dictates how fast the rider can go while using red bar (on an uphill area). MO is how fast they go while using Yellow bar. That may not be perfectly accurate, but is generally very close.

The maintain position strategy, is going to try and keep your rider in his current position using a maximum effort of that the value is set at. If the value is too low to maintain the current pace, you will see the number start flashing, indicating a higher value is needed. The rider will use as little energy as possible though, and will not generally be riding at that maximum value. Typically I set my riders to use 84 effort in this mode which is the threshold where they will not dip into red bar.
 
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jesulo
Thank you, Kentaurus. Common sense would agree with what both of you said, however I got the impression that many times you can stay in position with a lower pace... and that when you do that, your rider's heart rate decreases and he begins to make a lower effort. I mean, that you should always try to set the lowest possible pace without being dropped, because you can and will save energy this way.

I admit I might be wrong though.
 
Kentaurus
jesulo wrote:
Thank you, Kentaurus. Common sense would agree with what both of you said, however I got the impression that many times you can stay in position with a lower pace... and that when you do that, your rider's heart rate decreases and he begins to make a lower effort. I mean, that you should always try to set the lowest possible pace without being dropped, because you can and will save energy this way.

I admit I might be wrong though.


There is a yes and no to that, you can maintain position often with a lower setting, as your rider may fall back at times due to a change in tempo, or sharp hill, then will use that pace you selected as the maximum effort to return to the position he is supposed to be holding. So a lower value, like 70 especially during the first half of the race tends to be fine.

But assuming your rider is where he wants to be, there is no difference in holding with 99 and holding with 60.
 
jesulo
I always try to place my leader in front, right behind the guys who are taking relays. Being just a few places behind have often costed me a race. So... might it be that you need a higher pace to be right in front than to be just a few places behind, even if it seems close? Like at 80 you are positioned right where you want but lowering the effort just by 1 makes you lose 6, 7 places (and thus maybe not being able to follow the crucial attack), while in any other place in the peloton 1 rythm wouldn't make you lose that many positions.

Dunno, I might be overthinking. It's just that I believe putting your leader's pace to, say, 95 and forget it is more exhausting than manually tweaking to always ride at the minimum pace you can afford. Maybe what causes this is simply when the riders taking relays make sudden increases in their pace, which happens quite often.

Cheers.
 
Kentaurus
jesulo wrote:
I always try to place my leader in front, right behind the guys who are taking relays. Being just a few places behind have often costed me a race. So... might it be that you need a higher pace to be right in front than to be just a few places behind, even if it seems close? Like at 80 you are positioned right where you want but lowering the effort just by 1 makes you lose 6, 7 places (and thus maybe not being able to follow the crucial attack), while in any other place in the peloton 1 rythm wouldn't make you lose that many positions.

Dunno, I might be overthinking. It's just that I believe putting your leader's pace to, say, 95 and forget it is more exhausting than manually tweaking to always ride at the minimum pace you can afford. Maybe what causes this is simply when the riders taking relays make sudden increases in their pace, which happens quite often.

Cheers.


I generally suggest using 84 as your hold position number. It will keep you from using red bar and really exhausting your rider. Also always keep your leader protected that helps a ton. As for where to position, during the first half of the race you can generally sit a bit further back, I typically like to stay right about that 2nd row of riders behind the guys taking relays.
 
Blackfog
Interesting to read your thoughts about this.
I have a question that is consistent with this, suppose I am riding the Tour de France and my number 2 is stronger than my GC candidate in a single stage. My top-rider get dropped by the bunch. What do I do?

I have three options now:
1. Protecting my top-rider with the number 2. And select rotate with my top-rider.
2. Select 'follow' (just like you manage to do in a sprint train) and press the button rotate for my number 2.
3. Put my number 2 up front and select rotate, but don't take over. And put my top-rider on rotate (because of the setting on my number 2, my top-rider won't overtake).

P.S. The same goes of course when I try to put up the pace in front. With one or more riders..

Where do you get the most benefit from? And if there are more riders with me, should I do something different?

I play at difficulty level 'hard', but it seems that I have problems keeping up at mountain stages. And I find it quite easy to win on Flat (e.g. sprint), Hilly or Cobbles stages.
 
http://blog.v-bal.nl/
Kentaurus
Blackfog wrote:
Interesting to read your thoughts about this.
I have a question that is consistent with this, suppose I am riding the Tour de France and my number 2 is stronger than my GC candidate in a single stage. My top-rider get dropped by the bunch. What do I do?

I have three options now:
1. Protecting my top-rider with the number 2. And select rotate with my top-rider.
2. Select 'follow' (just like you manage to do in a sprint train) and press the button rotate for my number 2.
3. Put my number 2 up front and select rotate, but don't take over. And put my top-rider on rotate (because of the setting on my number 2, my top-rider won't overtake).

P.S. The same goes of course when I try to put up the pace in front. With one or more riders..

Where do you get the most benefit from? And if there are more riders with me, should I do something different?

I play at difficulty level 'hard', but it seems that I have problems keeping up at mountain stages. And I find it quite easy to win on Flat (e.g. sprint), Hilly or Cobbles stages.



Your top rider should never be on rotate (excluding a breakaway group you are willing to work with)... that is a recipe for disaster. Hold position is the ideal option, or even simply using Dot effort is best if you are willing to dedicate time to it. And unless in that situation my #2 rider is still capable of a very good GC, I'm dropping back to protect my leader.
 
Blackfog
Kentaurus wrote:
Blackfog wrote:
Interesting to read your thoughts about this.
I have a question that is consistent with this, suppose I am riding the Tour de France and my number 2 is stronger than my GC candidate in a single stage. My top-rider get dropped by the bunch. What do I do?

I have three options now:
1. Protecting my top-rider with the number 2. And select rotate with my top-rider.
2. Select 'follow' (just like you manage to do in a sprint train) and press the button rotate for my number 2.
3. Put my number 2 up front and select rotate, but don't take over. And put my top-rider on rotate (because of the setting on my number 2, my top-rider won't overtake).

P.S. The same goes of course when I try to put up the pace in front. With one or more riders..

Where do you get the most benefit from? And if there are more riders with me, should I do something different?

I play at difficulty level 'hard', but it seems that I have problems keeping up at mountain stages. And I find it quite easy to win on Flat (e.g. sprint), Hilly or Cobbles stages.



Your top rider should never be on rotate (excluding a breakaway group you are willing to work with)... that is a recipe for disaster. Hold position is the ideal option, or even simply using Dot effort is best if you are willing to dedicate time to it. And unless in that situation my #2 rider is still capable of a very good GC, I'm dropping back to protect my leader.


Kentaurus, it seems you are talking about if you're still in the bunch. I mean if you're not, or you want to break the others (in front) or try to get back to the escapees. The game is a lot more fun if you are involved in it and not do a 'Cadel Evans'.

Yes of course using dot is also an option.

But if I would get dropped (by a mistake or I have less power than others) it would be dumb to 'stay in position', I would lose a lot of terrain on my opponents.

What's the best tactic then? (if you are alone, or have one or more teammates with you)
 
http://blog.v-bal.nl/
Kentaurus
Blackfog wrote:
[quote]Kentaurus wrote:
[quote]Blackfog wrote:

Kentaurus, it seems you are talking about if you're still in the bunch. I mean if you're not, or you want to break the others (in front) or try to get back to the escapees. The game is a lot more fun if you are involved in it and not do a 'Cadel Evans'.

Yes of course using dot is also an option.

But if I would get dropped (by a mistake or I have less power than others) it would be dumb to 'stay in position', I would lose a lot of terrain on my opponents.

What's the best tactic then? (if you are alone, or have one or more teammates with you)


You don't do that with your leader... if you want to pull back an escape you use other riders. Having your leader in the bunch is by far the best way to successfully win a race unless you simply don't have the same talent and need long-shot chances. Being out in front, on your own will always cost you more than being in the pack.

Now if you want to attack that is fine, use attack, and then dot. If you get down to a group of 5 or 6 leaders then, by all means use relay in the acceptable range it gives you to rotate. Anything really beyond that and you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

Once you are dropped, you should always switch to DoT, however, waiting and joinin g the next group isn't a bad idea in some cases, in which you should just relay at a tempo you can maintain.
 
jesulo
Maybe Blackfog means his leader falls behind *the peloton*, to a An group? If I understood correctly and that's what you meant, by all means I'd drop my teammates, all of them if necessary, to help my leader get back to the group. That is, if the group where my leader is is losing too much time; sometimes you lose contact momentarily but it's a big group and other riders' teammates will work and you'll join the main group quick enough.

In any case, circumstances might change my tactic: will my leader be fighting for the final victory or will he be struggling that much in every mountain stage? In this case I might try to go for the stage win with my 2nd rider. Did my leader got dropped because of my mistake or was he just not able to keep the pace? In the first case I'd try to keep him always ahead, especially in critical moments like the beginning of a climb; in the second one I might reconsider my strategy for the race and maybe go for stages or the climber jersey. I might even change the leader role to my 2nd man, should he be able to fight for the final victory.
 
Blackfog
jesulo wrote:
Maybe Blackfog means his leader falls behind *the peloton*, to a An group? If I understood correctly and that's what you meant, by all means I'd drop my teammates, all of them if necessary, to help my leader get back to the group. That is, if the group where my leader is is losing too much time; sometimes you lose contact momentarily but it's a big group and other riders' teammates will work and you'll join the main group quick enough.

In any case, circumstances might change my tactic: will my leader be fighting for the final victory or will he be struggling that much in every mountain stage? In this case I might try to go for the stage win with my 2nd rider. Did my leader got dropped because of my mistake or was he just not able to keep the pace? In the first case I'd try to keep him always ahead, especially in critical moments like the beginning of a climb; in the second one I might reconsider my strategy for the race and maybe go for stages or the climber jersey. I might even change the leader role to my 2nd man, should he be able to fight for the final victory.


That's exactly what I mean.
You are now speaking about your strategy. I also see that if you're not in the front of the group at the start of a mountain you drop easily. And it costs a lot of energy to come back. Surely when your on the final climb.

But I would like to know, in certain scenarios what kind of buttons do you use. When i'm dropped and have some helper left, I do see that the term 'follow' (just as in a sprint train, seems to work quite well). In my opinion the rider is very close in the wheel of the one who is maintaining the tempo, and in most cases the rider at the back has the best stats. So he should maintain in his wheel.

On the other hand. You can also create a train like this, to steer up the pace while coming up to the last climb of the day, instead of 'rotating'.

Using Dot or Staying in position for the main rider and protecting him by another is also possible, but when doing this it seems that you burn your helper very fast. So I choose to burn my riders with less MTN/HILL stats, and leave the other climbers just in the bunch (on staying in position).
I choose to use Dot when the tempo of the bunch changes too quickly, in particular when the tempo rises. To not loose to much energy.
And yes, in most cases I do ride with the option 'stay in position'.

Since Cycling Manager (1) came out I play the game. And since the wind is a factor in the game, I always read that the 'protecting status' has it's use on flat stages (especially windy) but not really when moving up uphill.
So i'm guessing it's possible that you should use another tactic in mountain stages (when you're not riding on the flat).
 
http://blog.v-bal.nl/
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