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PCM.daily » Pro Cycling Manager 2014 » PCM 14: General
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PCM14: AI behavior
Rauling
SuperJelle wrote:
Since my game keeps crashing in the middle of the replay I can't state the exact km remaining.

- Career mode - first season.
- Happens with approx. 40 km remaining (after 3 of the big favourites have gone off and I've pursued some two-starred favorites to get my goal of a top 5.
- What happens is the following: The big three-stared favourite Boonen (along with some other two- and one-stared favorites) decides that they'll gladly let the Ronde van vlaanderen slip out of their hands if the non-favorite Breschel doesn't single-handedly catch the front four. Breschel (controlled by me) slows down to around 35 effort and since Boonen and the rest of the minor favourties stay behind and miss the change to win by more than six (!) minutes.

- I would like the AI to treat me (human) just like the rest of the AI. It's almost like it allies with itself and it's 9 vs 191 riders.
The favorite should act like a favorite and at the very least participate in catching the front guys and in this case realistically pull on their own.


The thing I have made with bold is what I have experienced too. I have the experience of being against all teams. I think that there are many unrealistic actions in-race. When the favorites attacks it is impossible to reach them if you don't counter-attack in the first place.
i44.tinypic.com/2efteua.jpg
PCMFreaks.dk - Official Danish Support Site
 
Paul23
Shippior wrote:
Just signed up to post this:

So it just happened that one of my team captains fell back in a large group because he wasnt based on the front of the peloton when doing a small climb, I was more worried about 2 other in my team, wearing respectively the yellow and green jersey but nonetheless I would want to keep his top 10 ranking.

Luckily for me there were a few other team members in the same group so that we could up the pace and ride back to the peloton, weren't it that it was quite a large group (~50) and they all decided to ride collectively alond the road, blocking the entire width of the road making it unable for any of my team members to get at the head of the group to speed up. Really annoying and this cost my 2nd guy a fair 10 minutes.

Such ridiculous designed AI.


First of all, welcome to our forum. I hope, that you will be here frequently.

Second off, it seems, nothing has changed in terms of AI the last years. Ok, in PCM 13 i could even bring some guys in the breakaways.
But i've got one question. When you have the GC-Leader jersey and you attack with another rider, does the Peloton chase your rider? Because in PCM13 they don't, and its annoying, because i can easily win some mountain stages by over 20 mins in extreme mode.
I just wanted to ask, because it pretty much annoys me in PCM13, and i just wanted to know, if they've fixed this.
i.imgur.com/aJSlUNt.png
 
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icewarrior
another things that also bother me are:
- losing time and effort to get water, sometimes it takes to 10-15km for a cyclist to go get water and bring it back to the other guys, there were times i had to send a second guy back to get water because the peloton had a cut and the first one got left behind, and in a hilly stage when it comes to the last favourites i prefer to atack and water alone in the front before being chased by the group, then going back to get it and miss the other leader atacks
- taking to much time to place the riders at the start for some reason even when i get the leaders jersey i get my guys almost at the end of the bunch when it starts, and forget the early breakways since it takes around 20km just to place at the front of the bunch, shouldnt the riders be placed by the gc order, in the start?
 
KrisDK
I second the first point above, it's a problem that Cyanide should have fixed years ago. I'll try to describe it, using the template given:

Replay: Too big to upload here, so I dumped it on https://www1.zippy.../file.html . (.zip-file)

Is it in career mode/stage race mode/single stage mode? Carrer, Criterium du Dauphine 2014, stage 4

When does it happen in the replay (KMs remaining): I don't know the exact number, as I can't see the exact KMs in replay, so I uploaded a pic that shows where it is: https://i58.tinypi...0zd8nc.png

What happens there? If you move to the indicated spot, you see Zaugg drop back to get water bottles. At that point, relaying is at a reasonably low effort. When he tries to return, he's shut in by several riders and can't deliver water before much later (finishes delivering water shortly after the first sprint). The AI does turn up the heat in the pack ~6km from the sprint, and slows down afterwards.

What would you like to see/What do you think would be "real" cycling?
I have never seen a water carrier get blocked in real cycling, and I doubt it would ever happen at any level. The AI should give free passage to the rider.

I know that there has been a post about it before, but maybe a replay could help a little.

EDIT: New download link, old one didn't work
Edited by KrisDK on 11-09-2014 23:29
 
matt17br
KrisDK wrote:
I second the first point above, it's a problem that Cyanide should have fixed years ago. I'll try to describe it, using the template given:

Replay: Too big to upload here, so I dumped it on https://www1.zippy.../file.html . (.zip-file)

Is it in career mode/stage race mode/single stage mode? Carrer, Criterium du Dauphine 2014, stage 4

When does it happen in the replay (KMs remaining): I don't know the exact number, as I can't see the exact KMs in replay, so I uploaded a pic that shows where it is: https://i58.tinypi...0zd8nc.png

What happens there? If you move to the indicated spot, you see Zaugg drop back to get water bottles. At that point, relaying is at a reasonably low effort. When he tries to return, he's shut in by several riders and can't deliver water before much later (finishes delivering water shortly after the first sprint). The AI does turn up the heat in the pack ~6km from the sprint, and slows down afterwards.

What would you like to see/What do you think would be "real" cycling?
I have never seen a water carrier get blocked in real cycling, and I doubt it would ever happen at any level. The AI should give free passage to the rider.

I know that there has been a post about it before, but maybe a replay could help a little.

EDIT: New download link, old one didn't work

This is probably the most frustrating "feature" (they like calling it feature):
The blocks.

It is the nightmare of every pcm player :lol:
Fortunately they've improved it, you can't even image it in PCM 06 :lol:

The only way to try to avoid it is anticipating it.
Infact taking the water at 20kms to go is nearly impossible since the groupe begins pacing seriously +/- at 15 kms to go.
So you can try to take the water at 35 kms to go.
Even earlier in the cooler stages or the stages that are NOT for the sprinters.
 
http://v.ht/Matt17
frnp
I always get the last water bottles about 60 km to go. It's safer and normally a watter bottle lasts 60 to 70 k
As for the AI... is some what funny... I managed to win the giro de Italia on extreme mode with Horner, who's 78 mountain... and what a epic win, as to the penultimate stage Zoncolan, 5 riders where separated for about 2 minutes.
In the first week I struggled a lot as he was on level 2, but in the last week I managed to reach 1st place... I always set top form for the last 2 weeks and start the tours with the form on 2. (I guess the AI riders started in level 1 and then descended to level 2)
The competition was Rodrigues, Aru, Henao, Majka, Kreuziger etc (Quintana injured), and as always... in the penultimate slope... they attack...
This gave me a lot of time to catch them on the descend, and in the last climb... just Henao managed to stay with me... the others lost about 4 5 minutes... they didn't have strength...
Other funny stuff... sometimes the favorites attack... and then all them stop as if they're waiting for someone to take the initiative... and of course this gives me a big advantage...
I believe that the key factor in this game is the position of your rider... for instance... in Zoncolan about 5 k to go I was with other riders (using the dot of course), and then we found some late guys from the initial echappƩ... and 2 or 3 favorites we're blocked by them and lost in a instance about 20 to 30 sec...
Still I find this a very amusing game as I love cycling, and as in real life you must be very good positioned to analyze a race and avoid attacks.
The only thing I don't like is the fatigue system...
In the beginning of the season, I see that for instance in Lombardia Ulissi won't be tired... but... after some events... not a lot of course... Lombardia appears with fatigue... even that after the Giro he won't run for about 2 months.
Cheers.
 
Dee-Jay
They need to fix the bug where the AI lets a mediocre rider from the players team breakaway and then sits up, refusing to chase. I won the Tirreno Adriatico with Cataldo on a massive breakaway in an early stage that the big riders couldn't bring back in during the tough mountain stages. Now I've won the Tour of Turkey when I sent Deignan on a midstage break on the "queen" stage and he rode to a ridiculous win by 10 mins. I did it to make Lotto (for Monfort - a favourite) and Orica (who were carrying the leader's jersey) do some pulling; I had Nieve as my leader who would attack on the final climb. But I kept going with Deignan and they let him go on and on!

This one's gonna have to be simply fixed by me regarding it as an exploit and resisting the temptation to "cheat".
 
Martjeu
- Career Mode - South African NC. I play with Giant (Hard) so I control the lone R. Janse van Rensburg against 4 MTN-Qhubeka riders.
- The whole race is crazy. Only 5 contenders, 4 from MTN, but I win easily.
- At the start all MTN riders just follow me. Strange, but possible. Then J. Janse van Rensburg attacks (not my brother!?) and they let me chase him. That makes perfect sense, but here it comes.

On the first hilly part I accelerate, dropping all 3 MTN riders, including Meintjes their best rider for this race. I catch up with J., we relay perfectly fine(!) until I decide to drop him on another hilly part. I ride solo for about 100 km to the finish line to pick up my new jersey. What about the 3 that got dropped? Not relaying at all! Just riding next to eachother as if they are chatting all the way. Of course they are DSQ in the end.

-I would like to see the AI do the math here. Hmmm, that guy is chasing our guy and if we try to catch him there is only our own team to profit from this chase. And even worse, when I caught J. he shouldn't relay if he has 3 teammates including Meintjes behind.
Martjeu attached the following file:
replay_000_3.cdb [1016.13kB / 169 Downloads]

Edited by Martjeu on 28-09-2014 18:05
 
Cossack
It was always in PCM that AI is races with that few riders is not working properly, nothing new here.
 
MikeS369
I just want to know why on almost every d@&! sprint stage my freaking sprinter jumps around my leadout man when I start my leadout man's sprint.

No I don't have them both selected when I start the sprint.
Edited by MikeS369 on 05-11-2014 01:35
 
matt17br
MikeS369 wrote:
I just want to know why on almost every d@&! sprint stage my freaking sprinter jumps around my leadout man when I start my leadout man's sprint.

No I don't have them both selected when I start the sprint.

Did you install the latest patch? The sprints were glitched as hell before then Wink
Manager of pcmdaily.com/files/Micros17/ged.png Generali pcmdaily.com/files/Micros17/ged.png
 
http://v.ht/Matt17
MikeS369
matt17br wrote:
MikeS369 wrote:
I just want to know why on almost every d@&! sprint stage my freaking sprinter jumps around my leadout man when I start my leadout man's sprint.

No I don't have them both selected when I start the sprint.

Did you install the latest patch? The sprints were glitched as hell before then Wink


I'm all patched up. 1.3.1.

The sprints are all kinds of messed up.

I've also notice quite often another teams sprint train will put a good 10 bike lengths between opposing team riders. You cannot catch them. Happened in my last race when FDJ just dropped everyone in the last 3K. I realize this game is 10:1 scale but that is just stupid. It happens too often to be just an anomaly.

I have reached the point where I feel it is almost not worth forming my own sprint train. Hell, I have almost decided to just sim the sprint stages. Sort of like the freaking TTT stages.

Another thing I have noticed is that as the road gets wider the AI gets even more stupid. Have a guy on a bottle run on a 3 or 4 wide road. 4 is the widest road. He has an entire side of the road open. Where does he go. Straight up the freaking middle of the peleton spending 15k to get bottles to teammates.

I'm getting on a roll here.

BTW, I play hard mode.
Edited by MikeS369 on 05-11-2014 18:26
 
Ripley
I've only had the game for a short while and only managed it up to the middle of the TdF with a custom team so far. But of all races - at the TdF 2014 on the admittedly tricky stages 2 (hilly stage in England) and 5 (cobblestones) the peloton just gave up the chase of the 30-ish men strong front group with about 20 kms to go. Even though tour favorites like Froome and Nibali were back there with plenty of helpers. They lost roughly 5 minutes on that 2nd stage and 10 minutes on the 5th - not to the stage winner, but other favorites. I had noticed similar behaviour before in a smaller WT stage races, might have been the Basque Tour.

The extreme example is the cobblestone stage. I didn't catch it immediately, but I believe around 25, 30 km to go it was still a large peloton and then the acceleration happened at the front with Sagan and Terpstra especially. Those got clear of the rest of the field and won by about 5 minutes against a group of 27 riders. And that group included a number of favorites, my guys (Kwiatkowski and Kreuziger), Valverde and Contador. But my pure climbers Aru and Pinot missed the cut and I saw their heart rate had dropped to 120, so nothing was happening in the peloton anymore. Just for the sake of it I let both of them attack in the last 10 km and relay together at 80 effort and even they won over 3 minutes on Froome and Co.

So the stage result looked roughly:

1. Sagan
2. Terpstra +1:30
3. - 24. including Contador, Valverde and Kwiatkowski +5:00
25. - 29. +6:30
30. and 31. Aru and Pinot +11:00
32. - 191. +14:13
including Froome, Nibali, Mollema, Betancur, van Garderen, etc

Just look at the size of the peloton, 160 riders, that they all made it across together shows that the effort was minimal. It's not even that, say, Belkin had anybody in the top group like Gesink or Ten Dam, all 9 of them were back in the peloton, same with Sky.

What would I like to see? Obviously that this doesn't happen. I was excited and nervous about that stage, I was hoping to gain some time with my men against some favorites, my sponsor wants a podium place at the TdF. But that the others stop chasing altogether?
 
Lachi
You did not follow the template, see first post.

But anyway, I doubt that Rin is still sending these reports to Cyanide, so better ask him before wasting more time in replying here.
 
Ripley
Despite that, here's another example of riders throwing away top 20 positions at Paris-Nice in the final kilometers of the penultimate stage. Just 12 km to go, most of the peloton is still together, the breakaway of 7 riders still has 2 minutes on the peloton so it looks like the stage winner will come from the escape group (he did). At this point, the riders placed 11th and 12th in the general classification attack and most but not all of the top 20 follows. The rest simply sits up (ok, except for points leader Nizzolo) and loses over 9 minutes within just 12 mostly flat kilometers!
Ripley attached the following image:
pnstage7.png
 
Daffers
i really gave the game a chance, (full season) but the ai makes the game unplayable..
it happens so many times that the ai refuses to chase, 80% of flat stages are nearly won by a solo rider who gets aways and nobody chases.
I won several stages with over 10 minutes because the ai just didnt chase..
some stages they really do nothing at all, other stages they are halfly chasing,
unplayable.. too bad... i am on 1.4.1
 
sobrano
Paul23 wrote:

First of all, welcome to our forum. I hope, that you will be here frequently.

Second off, it seems, nothing has changed in terms of AI the last years. Ok, in PCM 13 i could even bring some guys in the breakaways.
But i've got one question. When you have the GC-Leader jersey and you attack with another rider, does the Peloton chase your rider? Because in PCM13 they don't, and its annoying, because i can easily win some mountain stages by over 20 mins in extreme mode.
I just wanted to ask, because it pretty much annoys me in PCM13, and i just wanted to know, if they've fixed this.


very interessing! finally I see someone that put in evidence this AI bug.
idk if this bug is always present in pcm2014 (i dont have the game but it is present in 2013 version and i think nothing is changed between 2013 and 2014)
that was very easy for me, on extreme difficulty lvl, to get for 3 years consecutives the second place in the tour de france with a very very fair custom team using not voluntarily this AI bug.

If u are not in a good general table postition before the last mountain stage (I was about 20th with +25' on the leader) u can start a breakaway with ur raider and nobody will try to follow u (nor the leader or a top raider) u are totally ignored ... In those stages i won as u the lasts mountain stages with a -20m delay getting a jump in the general table up to an improbable second place with my very fair raider

it should be enough for the programmers, include a gap time control during the 3d race by the leader and the 2th and 3th of the general table)

What does it happen in pcm2014?
Edited by sobrano on 17-05-2015 21:34
 
KrisDK
Let's set the scenario: Hilly stage at a GT. My GC guy has a rather commanding overall lead, and appears to be the strongest rider. The AI expects me to relay for the majority of the stage, and I'm willing to do so. Out of nowhere, Team Sky and OPQS guys start relaying like madmen, so I set my guys to stand down because I don't want my team to blow up (and I don't care if a breakaway with riders not dangerous in the GC wins). The Sky and OPQS guys stop relaying, so I take front again, and they start going like madmen.

It's really annoying. Pick one and go with it.
 
Ripley
Yeah, that happens at times, makes no sense.
 
woulouf
KrisDK wrote:
Let's set the scenario: Hilly stage at a GT. My GC guy has a rather commanding overall lead, and appears to be the strongest rider. The AI expects me to relay for the majority of the stage, and I'm willing to do so. Out of nowhere, Team Sky and OPQS guys start relaying like madmen, so I set my guys to stand down because I don't want my team to blow up (and I don't care if a breakaway with riders not dangerous in the GC wins). The Sky and OPQS guys stop relaying, so I take front again, and they start going like madmen.

It's really annoying. Pick one and go with it.


The solution is to set your relay "manually". You put 1 guy at, say, 55 effort during 10 kms, then you replace by another guy, and so on.
 
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